When Is a Runner Down?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Agreed, if the ball carrier is still fighting and there is the possibility he could gain additional yardage then no, I wouldn't kill the play either. But in situations where it's hopeless and the ball carrier is in danger then I'm going to kill it. I don't work pro level and did not see the McNabb play, but I acknowledge things can be different in the show than at amateur.

This does not matter to me what level this play takes place. If I do not see leather or it is hard to determine if the ball is dead, I am not killing the play. Your whistle is not going to automatically stop players from trying to hit each other or fighting for yardage. The play is already dead by rule and for some reason players seems to know when to stop all other times without a whistle.

Originally Posted by HossHumard

I'm curious about you having "many plays where the whistle is not blown at all".....what circumstances occur to present that situation? How does the play end? I know there's many differences between three and four down ball, but this is one I've never heard of before.

The play ends by everyone clearly seeing a tackle and everyone stops. But if the ball is in a huge pile and we cannot see the ball, we are not blowing the play dead with a whistle. We have some very experienced officials on my current crew and it is not uncommon to not have a whistle on multiple plays during a game. And what difference does it make anyway? If a player runs out of bounds by several yards and is hit, do you not throw the flag because the whistle was blown? This is a football fundamental. This is coach speak about the whistle. As officials we should not be using this as our standard to call fouls or to kill the play IMHO.

Originally Posted by HossHumard

And peace back to you as well..especially on this, November 11th.

Lest We Forget.

I have several friends that are veterans and my father is buried in a Veteran's Cemetery in Memphis, Tenn. I also have a childhood friend that is going to Iraq at the beginning of December and happened to work at Fort Hood, TX. I pray for all of those that serve and served. And my former Referee was in the Navy and served in Somalia. I even dated a girl this year that was in the Air Force and served in Iraq (no longer dating her, but she is one of the most amazing people I have met). This day means a lot to me and those close to me.

Peace

[HossHumard]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the whistle thing, but we're on the same page as far as the men and women in uniform.

My father was an artillery sergeant from '46-'64 so I proudly call myself an "Army brat"....saw a lot of the world at an early age...

As well, two of the guys from our Association have each done multiple tours in Afghanistan.....extraordinary stuff from where I sit....always a sombre day...

[JRutledge]

Yes we will and I am OK with that.

My dad served in Korea and he never talked about his service. I really did not know how much he did until he was gone. I really wish I had the opportunity to talk to him about his service today considering how we treat soldiers today. But the interesting thing, every Patriotic Holiday he put an American Flag on our house. He never explained it and commented on it. But what I did gain is a respect for the flag and in my little way I was the Color Guard at Missouri Military Academy back in 87 and 88. And my respect and love for the colors came from my dad. I am glad he passed that on to me without really saying much of a word. The flag from his funeral is still sitting in my Mom's bedroom. This day means a lot to me and I miss my dad.

Enough of this, let us get back to talking football.

[HossHumard]

You bet.

Having said that, our season up here is pretty much done, which is kind of a shame as we've had (for the most part) a very mild fall here, so we could actually play some more games if there were any...gonna be +50F this weekend which is EXTREMELY unusual for this time of year here. We've got some Provincial Semi-finals this weekend and Finals next weekend and then the "big ones" weekend of Nov 28/29.

The Vanier (Cdn College Championship) is in Quebec City 11/28 and the Grey Cup is in Calgary 11/29. Hoping to be assigned to one of the HS Finals next weekend here in Edmonton and I will be at the Grey Cup as a fan for sure...blood alcohol level guaranteed not to be below .08!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Really? Well, when you have a ball carrier who runs into a group of players and starts to get pushed backwards while still on his feet with no hope of breaking free you'll almost always see a whistle at NFL, CFL and amateur on both sides of the border....how is that different?

It's all about player safety in a situation like this, especially at amateur....

No, it's not about player safety. It's about whether he's down. If his forward progress is stopped, then by all means blow your whistle if you want. Because at that point he's down and the ball is dead.

Blowing the whistle doesn't make anyone safer, it's just a recipe for an IW.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Mike L

NCAA rule 4.1.3.b - A live ball becomes dead when any part of the ball carrier's body, except hand or foot, touches the ground.

So, unless you choose to consider another player as "the ground", touching a player laying on the ground with any body part does not make the ball carrier down.

I don't know much about NFL rules, but I'd bet somewhere in there is the about the same wording.

Right. Only in Rugby Union (not sure about Rugby League) did they change the tackle rule to include cases of laying on top of another player on the ground, as a type of "electricity" or "contagion".

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Really? Well, when you have a ball carrier who runs into a group of players and starts to get pushed backwards while still on his feet with no hope of breaking free you'll almost always see a whistle at NFL, CFL and amateur on both sides of the border....how is that different?

But that's a textbook case of another way to make a ball in player possession dead, forward progress stopped. It's not an ad hoc ruling, it's part of the rules.

It's all about player safety in a situation like this, especially at amateur....

I think what they're saying is that you might rule the runner held with progress stopped sooner under some conditions than under other conditions, based on relative danger.