When Is a Runner Down?

[HossHumard]

Agreed on all counts above in three down ball as well, but if a player is lying on top of another player but about to get creamed by some defensive players, I find that's usually a good reason to kill the play assuming he's not going to gain any more yardage...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Agreed on all counts above in three down ball as well, but if a player is lying on top of another player but about to get creamed by some defensive players, I find that's usually a good reason to kill the play assuming he's not going to gain any more yardage...

Sounds like his forward progress is stopped, which means he's down. IMO, it's a bad policy to call a runner down because he might get hit. Call him down when he's down.

[HossHumard]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Sounds like his forward progress is stopped, which means he's down. IMO, it's a bad policy to call a runner down because he might get hit. Call him down when he's down.

Really? Well, when you have a ball carrier who runs into a group of players and starts to get pushed backwards while still on his feet with no hope of breaking free you'll almost always see a whistle at NFL, CFL and amateur on both sides of the border....how is that different?

It's all about player safety in a situation like this, especially at amateur....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Really? Well, when you have a ball carrier who runs into a group of players and starts to get pushed backwards while still on his feet with no hope of breaking free you'll almost always see a whistle at NFL, CFL and amateur on both sides of the border....how is that different?

It's all about player safety in a situation like this, especially at amateur....

Maybe that is how they do it in Canada, but where I live that is not what we do. There are many plays where the whistle is not blown at all. And we certainly are not blowing the whistle if a player is still fighting or not really grasped.

The play in question looked like it might have been an issue or forward progress being stopped first. Then when the pile was moving McNabb fell forward. At least this is what the official that was ruling on the play was thinking. Because I recall that McNabb did go backwards.

Peace

[HossHumard]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Maybe that is how they do it in Canada, but where I live that is not what we do. There are many plays where the whistle is not blown at all. And we certainly are not blowing the whistle if a player is still fighting or not really grasped.

The play in question looked like it might have been an issue or forward progress being stopped first. Then when the pile was moving McNabb fell forward. At least this is what the official that was ruling on the play was thinking. Because I recall that McNabb did go backwards.

Peace

Agreed, if the ball carrier is still fighting and there is the possibility he could gain additional yardage then no, I wouldn't kill the play either. But in situations where it's hopeless and the ball carrier is in danger then I'm going to kill it. I don't work pro level and did not see the McNabb play, but I acknowledge things can be different in the show than at amateur.

I'm curious about you having "many plays where the whistle is not blown at all".....what circumstances occur to present that situation? How does the play end? I know there's many differences between three and four down ball, but this is one I've never heard of before.

And peace back to you as well..especially on this, November 11th.

Lest We Forget.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Agreed, if the ball carrier is still fighting and there is the possibility he could gain additional yardage then no, I wouldn't kill the play either. But in situations where it's hopeless and the ball carrier is in danger then I'm going to kill it. I don't work pro level and did not see the McNabb play, but I acknowledge things can be different in the show than at amateur.

This does not matter to me what level this play takes place. If I do not see leather or it is hard to determine if the ball is dead, I am not killing the play. Your whistle is not going to automatically stop players from trying to hit each other or fighting for yardage. The play is already dead by rule and for some reason players seems to know when to stop all other times without a whistle.

Originally Posted by HossHumard

I'm curious about you having "many plays where the whistle is not blown at all".....what circumstances occur to present that situation? How does the play end? I know there's many differences between three and four down ball, but this is one I've never heard of before.

The play ends by everyone clearly seeing a tackle and everyone stops. But if the ball is in a huge pile and we cannot see the ball, we are not blowing the play dead with a whistle. We have some very experienced officials on my current crew and it is not uncommon to not have a whistle on multiple plays during a game. And what difference does it make anyway? If a player runs out of bounds by several yards and is hit, do you not throw the flag because the whistle was blown? This is a football fundamental. This is coach speak about the whistle. As officials we should not be using this as our standard to call fouls or to kill the play IMHO.

Originally Posted by HossHumard

And peace back to you as well..especially on this, November 11th.

Lest We Forget.

I have several friends that are veterans and my father is buried in a Veteran's Cemetery in Memphis, Tenn. I also have a childhood friend that is going to Iraq at the beginning of December and happened to work at Fort Hood, TX. I pray for all of those that serve and served. And my former Referee was in the Navy and served in Somalia. I even dated a girl this year that was in the Air Force and served in Iraq (no longer dating her, but she is one of the most amazing people I have met). This day means a lot to me and those close to me.

Peace

[HossHumard]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the whistle thing, but we're on the same page as far as the men and women in uniform.

My father was an artillery sergeant from '46-'64 so I proudly call myself an "Army brat"....saw a lot of the world at an early age...

As well, two of the guys from our Association have each done multiple tours in Afghanistan.....extraordinary stuff from where I sit....always a sombre day...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Really? Well, when you have a ball carrier who runs into a group of players and starts to get pushed backwards while still on his feet with no hope of breaking free you'll almost always see a whistle at NFL, CFL and amateur on both sides of the border....how is that different?

It's all about player safety in a situation like this, especially at amateur....

No, it's not about player safety. It's about whether he's down. If his forward progress is stopped, then by all means blow your whistle if you want. Because at that point he's down and the ball is dead.

Blowing the whistle doesn't make anyone safer, it's just a recipe for an IW.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Really? Well, when you have a ball carrier who runs into a group of players and starts to get pushed backwards while still on his feet with no hope of breaking free you'll almost always see a whistle at NFL, CFL and amateur on both sides of the border....how is that different?

But that's a textbook case of another way to make a ball in player possession dead, forward progress stopped. It's not an ad hoc ruling, it's part of the rules.

It's all about player safety in a situation like this, especially at amateur....

I think what they're saying is that you might rule the runner held with progress stopped sooner under some conditions than under other conditions, based on relative danger.