Penalty enforcement FED

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by jaybird

In the OP there was a 5 yard facemask.
Can this be a dead ball foul??

Although the original question wasn't specifically about a facemask foul, and in practice a 5 yard facemask foul would most normally apply to a live ball situation, there is absolutely nothing that restricts such a foul to live ball only.

[kdf5]

I agree with whitehat. There really shouldn't be anything "incidental" about grasping an opponent's face mask after the down.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Although the original question wasn't specifically about a facemask foul, and in practice a 5 yard facemask foul would most normally apply to a live ball situation, there is absolutely nothing that restricts such a foul to live ball only.

Are you sure?

Originally Posted by 2009 Rule Book

POINTS OF EMPHASIS

HELMET AND FACE MASK

p. 82-3: Similarly, the official should see and penalize incidental grasping when, for example,
a player momentarily grasps the mask, helmet opening or chin strap, but does not affect
the head or neck movement. “Incidental” means that something happened within the context
of a play, but has only minimal effect.

Since "a play" refers to either a loose-ball play or a running play, I think it follows that the 5-yard, "incidental" face mask foul can be called only during a live ball.

[jTheUmp]

I suppose "in theory", you could have a dead-ball 5-yard facemask penalty. However, "in practice", I don't think I'd ever call a 5-yard facemask as a dead-ball foul. It's hard to say that someone 'incidentally' grabbed an opponent's facemask when the ball is dead, so if it did happen I'd probably call either a PF or USC, depending on the context.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

I suppose "in theory", you could have a dead-ball 5-yard facemask penalty. However, "in practice", I don't think I'd ever call a 5-yard facemask as a dead-ball foul. It's hard to say that someone 'incidentally' grabbed an opponent's facemask when the ball is dead, so if it did happen I'd probably call either a PF or USC, depending on the context.

USC doesn't fit the bill since these are non-contact fouls.

[NorCalRef12]

Why on earth would you call a dead ball 5 yard facemask? If the ball is dead and an A player pushes a B player in the back are you going to call a block in the back? No, you should have nothing or a personal foul.

If a player is holding another players jersey after the ball is dead you wouldn't call dead ball holding. If the holding was severe enough and the player was tackled you would again have nothing or a dead ball PF.

Dead ball officiating is about safety. If something happens that is a danger to a player, call it a personal foul, otherwise let it go.

[whitehat]

well summarized Norcal!

[Durham]

How often do you call this? I ask, because many people I have talked to believe that it is either a 15 or nothing. I know the 5 is in the rule book, but I am inclined to lean towards their thinking in that in practice it is either a facemask or it is not. After all it is a rule intended to ensure the safety of players.

Thoughts!

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by Durham

How often do you call this? I ask, because many people I have talked to believe that it is either a 15 or nothing. I know the 5 is in the rule book, but I am inclined to lean towards their thinking in that in practice it is either a facemask or it is not. After all it is a rule intended to ensure the safety of players.

Thoughts!

I think the 5 yarder was added years ago to prevent the 15 yarders. If it's a facemask then call it, whether it's 5 or 15 and if you're in doubt, it's 15, I believe anyway. This ain't the NFL, it's HS and our number one concern is player safety.

[Bullycon]

Originally Posted by Durham

How often do you call this? I ask, because many people I have talked to believe that it is either a 15 or nothing. I know the 5 is in the rule book, but I am inclined to lean towards their thinking in that in practice it is either a facemask or it is not. After all it is a rule intended to ensure the safety of players.

Thoughts!

I wonder if the confusion is because the NCAA and NFL have eliminated the 5 yard foul.

Does the hand brush the face mask? No foul.
Does the hand grasp the face mask, but not pull or twist it in any way? 5 yards.
Does the hand grasp the face mask, and pull or twist it? Do you see the helmet move in any direction in any manner as a result of the face mask? 15 yards.

I think my games have had as many 5 yard fouls as 15 this year. I mostly do youth games, though. They are pretty good about immediately letting go.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Although the original question wasn't specifically about a facemask foul, and in practice a 5 yard facemask foul would most normally apply to a live ball situation, there is absolutely nothing that restricts such a foul to live ball only.

That's what happens when you take common sense out of the equation and try to apply only the letter of the rule.

[Rich]

In practice, 5 yard facemask fouls are extremely rare.

Any movement of the head/helmet should simply be a personal foul. I wouldn't be opposed to removing the 5 yard mask from the NFHS code and simply ignoring the grab and release without a head turn/tackle by the mask.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

In practice, 5 yard facemask fouls are extremely rare.

Any movement of the head/helmet should simply be a personal foul. I wouldn't be opposed to removing the 5 yard mask from the NFHS code and simply ignoring the grab and release without a head turn/tackle by the mask.

For what it's worth, the SPECIFIC purpose for adding the 5 yard facemask foul was that NFHS concluded that "incidental" type interactions with a face mask were being routinely ignored because the severity of the penalty was not merited by the type of incidental contact.

Because NFHS wants to discourage any and all contact with the face mask, the 5 yard penalty was added to encourage penalizing less severe grasping of the mask. The "Penalty" description for NF: 9-4-3h differentiates between the two as, "incidental grasping-5 yards" and "grasping AND twisting, turning or pulling the face mask of helmet opening-15 yards".

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ajmc

For what it's worth, the SPECIFIC purpose for adding the 5 yard facemask foul was that NFHS concluded that "incidental" type interactions with a face mask were being routinely ignored because the severity of the penalty was not merited by the type of incidental contact.

Because NFHS wants to discourage any and all contact with the face mask, the 5 yard penalty was added to encourage penalizing less severe grasping of the mask. The "Penalty" description for NF: 9-4-3h differentiates between the two as, "incidental grasping-5 yards" and "grasping AND twisting, turning or pulling the face mask of helmet opening-15 yards".

And they could've simply eliminated the grasping as a foul. Now we have coaches screaming every time a hand touches the mask -- and that's NOT a foul.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And they could've simply eliminated the grasping as a foul. Now we have coaches screaming every time a hand touches the mask -- and that's NOT a foul.

If memory serves, the same coaches did the same amount of screaming before the 5 yard penalty was added. If nothing else they've been consistent, a prime example that consistency is not always a good thing.