Penalty enforcement FED

[johnnyg08]

First and 10

RB runs for three yards, right at the end of the run there is a 5 yard facemask penalty.

Question: After the penalty is enforced, is it 1st down and 2 or is it 2nd down and 2? Or neither? Why?

Thanks guys. Still trying to completely grasp penalty enforcement...it's not as easy as I once thought it was.

[FTVMartin]

The down is replayed whenever a penalty is accepted. (except for LOD fouls)

[ajmc]

As with all penalties there is a choice, by the offended team. When you say, "at the end of the run" that could mean either a live ball foul, or a dead ball foul.

For a live ball Face mask, since the foul happened during the play, the impact of the penalty is considered part of the play. The live ball foul is administered from the end of the run, so A gained 3 yards on his own, and if A accepts the penalty they would get an additional 5 yards PLUS the down is repeated. Since it was 1st down, we repeat 1st down (have advanced 3 yards + the 5 yards of the penalty) and there is only 2 yards to go to the original Line to gain.

For a dead ball foul, since the foul happened after the play was over, the yardage situation is the same ( 3 yards gained + 5 additional yards for the penalty, but because the foul occurred AFTER the play was over, the penalty does not include repeating the down, so it's 2nd down and 2 yards to go to reach the original line to gain. The enforcement spot is the subsequent spot, the spot where the run ended, which in this case is also where the play ended and where the ball would otherwise next be put in play.

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

First and 10

RB runs for three yards, right at the end of the run there is a 5 yard facemask penalty.

Question: After the penalty is enforced, is it 1st down and 2 or is it 2nd down and 2? Or neither? Why?

Thanks guys. Still trying to completely grasp penalty enforcement...it's not as easy as I once thought it was.

1st and 2.

After a liveball penalty is enforced the down will be the same as the down in which the penalty occured unless:

1. After penalty enforcement team A is in possession beyond the line-to-gain, then 1st down.
2. The penalty against team B includes an automatic 1st down, then 1st down.
3. The penalty against team A includes the loss of (the right to replay the) down, the down is next.
4. After enforcement of a liveball penalty on 4th down which includes the loss of down leaves team A behind the line to gain then B's ball 1st down.

Automatic 1st Down:
Pass Interference
Roughing: Snapper, Holder, Kicker, Passer

Loss of Down:
Illegal Forward Pass
Intentional Grounding
Pass Interference
Illegal Touching

[jaybird]

When you say, "at the end of the run" that could mean either a live ball foul, or a dead ball foul.

In the OP there was a 5 yard facemask.
Can this be a dead ball foul??

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by jaybird

In the OP there was a 5 yard facemask.
Can this be a dead ball foul??

Why couldn't it be?

[whitehat]

IMO, NO. after play is dead and someone touches a facemask we are going to have nothing unless it becomes somehow a dead ball personal foul for things getting a bit more out of hand than someone touching a facemask, that would normally be enforced as a 5 yd live ball foul. I can see what would normally be a 15 yd facemask penalty enforced as a dead ball PF if happened after the play is ended.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by whitehat

IMO, NO. after play is dead and someone touches a facemask we are going to have nothing unless it becomes somehow a dead ball personal foul for things getting a bit more out of hand than someone touching a facemask, that would normally be enforced as a 5 yd live ball foul. I can see what would normally be a 15 yd facemask penalty enforced as a dead ball PF if happened after the play is ended.

Agree. 5-yd facemask is live-ball only, since the protection it affords exists only during a down.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by jaybird

In the OP there was a 5 yard facemask.
Can this be a dead ball foul??

Although the original question wasn't specifically about a facemask foul, and in practice a 5 yard facemask foul would most normally apply to a live ball situation, there is absolutely nothing that restricts such a foul to live ball only.

[kdf5]

I agree with whitehat. There really shouldn't be anything "incidental" about grasping an opponent's face mask after the down.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Although the original question wasn't specifically about a facemask foul, and in practice a 5 yard facemask foul would most normally apply to a live ball situation, there is absolutely nothing that restricts such a foul to live ball only.

Are you sure?

Originally Posted by 2009 Rule Book

POINTS OF EMPHASIS

HELMET AND FACE MASK

p. 82-3: Similarly, the official should see and penalize incidental grasping when, for example,
a player momentarily grasps the mask, helmet opening or chin strap, but does not affect
the head or neck movement. “Incidental” means that something happened within the context
of a play, but has only minimal effect.

Since "a play" refers to either a loose-ball play or a running play, I think it follows that the 5-yard, "incidental" face mask foul can be called only during a live ball.

[jTheUmp]

I suppose "in theory", you could have a dead-ball 5-yard facemask penalty. However, "in practice", I don't think I'd ever call a 5-yard facemask as a dead-ball foul. It's hard to say that someone 'incidentally' grabbed an opponent's facemask when the ball is dead, so if it did happen I'd probably call either a PF or USC, depending on the context.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Although the original question wasn't specifically about a facemask foul, and in practice a 5 yard facemask foul would most normally apply to a live ball situation, there is absolutely nothing that restricts such a foul to live ball only.

That's what happens when you take common sense out of the equation and try to apply only the letter of the rule.

[Rich]

In practice, 5 yard facemask fouls are extremely rare.

Any movement of the head/helmet should simply be a personal foul. I wouldn't be opposed to removing the 5 yard mask from the NFHS code and simply ignoring the grab and release without a head turn/tackle by the mask.

[golfnref]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Although the original question wasn't specifically about a facemask foul, and in practice a 5 yard facemask foul would most normally apply to a live ball situation, there is absolutely nothing that restricts such a foul to live ball only.

Yes there is. Common sense tells you that after a play is over or during any dead ball situation you wouldn't have "incidental" fouls. It would have to rise to the level of a personal foul or you have nothing.