Penalty Enforcement

[bossman72]

I've recently started to read the rules on penalty enforcement and i'm not too sure on a couple situations... here's one of them:

On a pass play, let's say an A player holds (a) while the QB is in the pocket, (b) while the ball is thrown in the air, or (c) after a receiver makes a catch.

If i'm not mistaken, the basic spot for enforcement on a loose ball play is the prev line of scrimmage.

I'm pretty sure (a) and (b) are enforced from the LOS, but i'm confused on (c). If this was a 60 yd play, and the hold occurred near B's goal line, it doesn't seem right that this would be enforced from the prev LOS... i want to say this would be a spot foul, but i thought fouls by the O in front of the basic spot are penalized from the basic spot...

Set me straight, fellas. Thanks

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by bossman72

On a pass play, let's say an A player holds (a) while the QB is in the pocket

FED Rules

QB in the pocket has no bearing. What matters is where the hold was committed. Under all-but-one enforcement, the basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot. A penalty committed by the offense behind the basic spot is the 'one'. This is enforced from the spot of the foul.

(b) while the ball is thrown in the air

Same enforcement as above, if the foul was committed behind the basic spot it's enforced from the spot of the foul. If the foul was committed in advance of the basic spot it's enforced from the basic spot (previous spot).

(c) after a receiver makes a catch.

After the pass is caught we have a running play. The basic spot for fouls committed during the running portion of this play will be the end of the run, with the exception of fouls committed by the offense behind the basic spot, which are enforced from the spot of the foul.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bossman72

I've recently started to read the rules on penalty enforcement and i'm not too sure on a couple situations... here's one of them:

On a pass play, let's say an A player holds (a) while the QB is in the pocket, (b) while the ball is thrown in the air, or (c) after a receiver makes a catch.

If i'm not mistaken, the basic spot for enforcement on a loose ball play is the prev line of scrimmage.

I'm pretty sure (a) and (b) are enforced from the LOS, but i'm confused on (c). If this was a 60 yd play, and the hold occurred near B's goal line, it doesn't seem right that this would be enforced from the prev LOS... i want to say this would be a spot foul, but i thought fouls by the O in front of the basic spot are penalized from the basic spot...

Set me straight, fellas. Thanks

CANADIAN RULING:

While the pocket has no significance in Canadian football, (a) is applied from the LS.

In (b): if the ball is in the air, a hold is rare. I would think it only matters if it's against a receiver, in which case it's probably PI instead. But if it's not and whiel the ball is airborne, apply from LS.

In (c), if yards were gained, apply from Point Ball Held. If yards were not gained, apply from LS.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by waltjp

FED Rules

QB in the pocket has no bearing. What matters is where the hold was committed. Under all-but-one enforcement, the basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot. A penalty committed by the offense behind the basic spot is the 'one'. This is enforced from the spot of the foul.

I know Walt knows this, but to make sure you understand that it is only a loose ball play if the ball gets thrown after the hold. If the hold occurs while the QB is in the pocket and then he runs the ball, hands it off, or gets sacked, it is a running play and the BS is the end of the run. You then would enforce the penalty from the EOR unless the hold is behind the EOR, in which case you'd enforce from the spot of the foul.

Juggling Ref brings up a good point about the hold after the pass. If that hold is against a linemen, it should not be thrown as it has no impact on the play.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by MJT

I know Walt knows this, but to make sure you understand that it is only a loose ball play if the ball gets thrown after the hold. If the hold occurs while the QB is in the pocket and then he runs the ball, hands it off, or gets sacked, it is a running play and the BS is the end of the run. You then would enforce the penalty from the EOR unless the hold is behind the EOR, in which case you'd enforce from the spot of the foul.

Juggling Ref brings up a good point about the hold after the pass. If that hold is against a linemen, it should not be thrown as it has no impact on the play.

Yes, exactly. Thanks for filling in the blanks.

As an Umpire I stay with the line play for a bit after the pass is thrown just to keep an eye on any cheap shots. I'll also verbalize and let them know that I'm still watching if they're still dancing with each other.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Yes, exactly. Thanks for filling in the blanks.

As an Umpire I stay with the line play for a bit after the pass is thrown just to keep an eye on any cheap shots.

Walt, if it is not a deep pass, don't you pivot to help on whether it is a catch or no catch? The R cannot help on those, so I (the R) am the one who cleans up line play with "ball's away" and "we're done" so the U can pivot. On many plays, especially drags or down and ins he has the best look at if it was a catch or no catch.

[waltjp]

Yes, I'll turn to give some help on the catch/trap. About the only ones I miss are the quick slants and short crossing patterns that have me diving for cover!

[MJT]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Yes, I'll turn to give some help on the catch/trap. About the only ones I miss are the quick slants and short crossing patterns that have me diving for cover!

2 years ago, our U caught one right in the forhead. We heard a big thud! As soon as we knew he wasn't hurt, we had a great time laughing!! We still talk about it, and probably always will be on our highlight real.

[waltjp]

I almost got hit with a deflected ball on a middle screen a couple of weeks ago. The receiver was about an arm's length from me. Between me, him, the blockers and defensive players the area was a bit crowded.

I actually think my R enjoys watching when he hears the offense call for a middle screen or draw play.

[Welpe]

Speaking of middle screens, I had a play last week where I could've been credited with the tackle. I'm read pass and started moving towards the LOS just as the ball was being thrown. The full back caught the ball, turned up field and ended up right in my arms. I tried pushing him away but it was too late, the defense caught him and nearly took us both down.

He got up, gave me a look of distgust and started walking away. Being that I'm not a small guy, I simply told him "Sorry but I just can't disappear."

[Forksref]

I was U in a freshman game a couple weeks ago so that a young R could get some experience. I was focusing on the blockers so hard that a pass whistled right by my ear as I made no move to avoid it. It was so close that I could hear a "whooshing" sound. Of course, I stand 6-3 so I am not your prototypical U. (in a lot of ways!) I like the U spot. Lots of action there. When I retire, I plan to become a U.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I was U in a freshman game a couple weeks ago so that a young R could get some experience. I was focusing on the blockers so hard that a pass whistled right by my ear as I made no move to avoid it. It was so close that I could hear a "whooshing" sound. Of course, I stand 6-3 so I am not your prototypical U. (in a lot of ways!) I like the U spot. Lots of action there. When I retire, I plan to become a U.

I wear the WH 90% of the time, but I've grown to covet my time spent as umpire during underclass games. I'm good at spotting the football, I like having the play come right towards me, and I don't have anyone yelling at me, at least not much.

This week is the final week of the regular season and we're working 2 varsity games, 2 freshman games, one sophomore game, and one JV game. 2 varsity games and the JV game I'll work referee, but the rest I'm working umpire.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I wear the WH 90% of the time, but I've grown to covet my time spent as umpire during underclass games. I'm good at spotting the football, I like having the play come right towards me, and I don't have anyone yelling at me, at least not much.

This week is the final week of the regular season and we're working 2 varsity games, 2 freshman games, one sophomore game, and one JV game. 2 varsity games and the JV game I'll work referee, but the rest I'm working umpire.

Rich, you bring up another question:

When you first start out (or after a few years for that matter), do you have to know ALL of the positions on the field, or are you put at one when you start out and just learn that one?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Rich, you bring up another question:

When you first start out (or after a few years for that matter), do you have to know ALL of the positions on the field, or are you put at one when you start out and just learn that one?

Everyone does this different. This is just my way:

I'm in a unique spot as our crew chief (compared with people who have games assigned by associations). I recruit people to my crew and decide when we need to make a change. I've "fired" 2 crew members in the past 3 seasons and 3 of my guys on the crew were rookies when they started. 2 of them worked their first games on Friday night.

For VARSITY games, I start guys at back judge. We go over the mechanics of working the position and emphasize the dead ball aspects of officiating as well as the live ball aspects (to me, moving the ball between plays is incredibly important to a game's flow and how well the crew does). I've had three rookies start at back judge and all three of them picked up the position quickly and have good judgment when it's needed.

But HS football doesn't have a huge amount of passing in my area, so the role is mainly dead ball officiating -- extra set of eyes, move the football. There's been one non-call that I saw on video in 3 seasons I think needed a flag and didn't get one, so I think the three guys who've worked back there have done a good job.

On the non-varsity games, I start the same people out at line judge. By the end of the first season, that person is ready to work a varsity game on a wing. I'm trying to groom a back-up white hat, so normally in the non-varsity games he'll work one of them (if a DH) back there. If we have 2 games, though, I usually put the crew in our varsity positions for the second game (JV) so we get some non-Friday night practice as a group.

The second year, new guys can pick up linesman and umpire on non-varsity nights if they want. My first recruit is now my varsity umpire and is outstanding at the position. Probably better than me, which isn't saying much.

And anyone is encouraged to pick up some youth games on Saturdays, although I've stopped working them. It's good for the guys to have to rely on their own rule knowledge rather than having me there to be a rulebook resource.

I've done this three times, now. I've got three guys with no bad habits and I know I can be a demanding crew chief at times, but I'd take my crew (with a fourth, third, and second year person as my umpire, linesman, and back judge currently) over a lot of 20-25 year guys.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Everyone does this different. This is just my way:

I'm in a unique spot as our crew chief (compared with people who have games assigned by associations). I recruit people to my crew and decide when we need to make a change. I've "fired" 2 crew members in the past 3 seasons and 3 of my guys on the crew were rookies when they started. 2 of them worked their first games on Friday night.

For VARSITY games, I start guys at back judge. We go over the mechanics of working the position and emphasize the dead ball aspects of officiating as well as the live ball aspects (to me, moving the ball between plays is incredibly important to a game's flow and how well the crew does). I've had three rookies start at back judge and all three of them picked up the position quickly and have good judgment when it's needed.

But HS football doesn't have a huge amount of passing in my area, so the role is mainly dead ball officiating -- extra set of eyes, move the football. There's been one non-call that I saw on video in 3 seasons I think needed a flag and didn't get one, so I think the three guys who've worked back there have done a good job.

On the non-varsity games, I start the same people out at line judge. By the end of the first season, that person is ready to work a varsity game on a wing. I'm trying to groom a back-up white hat, so normally in the non-varsity games he'll work one of them (if a DH) back there. If we have 2 games, though, I usually put the crew in our varsity positions for the second game (JV) so we get some non-Friday night practice as a group.

The second year, new guys can pick up linesman and umpire on non-varsity nights if they want. My first recruit is now my varsity umpire and is outstanding at the position. Probably better than me, which isn't saying much.

And anyone is encouraged to pick up some youth games on Saturdays, although I've stopped working them. It's good for the guys to have to rely on their own rule knowledge rather than having me there to be a rulebook resource.

I've done this three times, now. I've got three guys with no bad habits and I know I can be a demanding crew chief at times, but I'd take my crew (with a fourth, third, and second year person as my umpire, linesman, and back judge currently) over a lot of 20-25 year guys.

Rich, that is really awesome.

I am a relatively young crew chief who took over for an official with 25+ years experience, and as I get a few more years of experience under my belt, I'd like to build a crew of officials without the "this is the way we've always done it" bad habits. My goal is to eventually be working with a crew who is outwardly seeking to improve every game and every season. In my area that is difficult to find.