NCAA: out of bounds or TD when ball hits the pylon?

[bearclause]

This isn't a theoretical. During the UCLA at Cal game yesterday, Cal's Shane Vereen dove for the pylon. The ball appeared to be over the sideline (before the goal line) before he brought in back in towards the field and hit the pylon. His knee hit the ground with the ball half over the endzone and half out of bounds beyond the goal line. His body never touched any part out of bounds until the ball hit the upright pylon.

The officials called a TD.

We're having an interesting discussion on the meaning of AR 8-2-1, IV:

IV. The ball, in possession of airborne ball carrier A21, crosses the
sideline above the one-yard line, penetrates the plane of the goal line
extended and is then declared dead out of bounds in possession of
A21. RULING: Ball is declared out of bounds at the one-yard line
(Rules 2-11-1 and 4-2-4-e).

What exactly does "goal line extended" mean? I'm thinking it means the extension of the plane of the goal line outside of the sideline, while others seem to think it means that once the ball crosses the sideline before reaching the goal line, it's spotted where it crosses the sideline.

[JRutledge]

I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

A player is not out of bounds until they either touch out of bounds or ruled out of bound by rule. In this case the runner is nothing until they touch something out of bounds. If forward progress is at issue and they are airborne, then they are considered to be where they crossed the intersection once they have been ruled out of bounds. That is not the case in the play you described. So if they leap and touch the pylon or foot touches, they are for the purposes of this discussion still in-bounds. As it relates to the end zone the ball must cross on the in-bounds side for an airborne player to be awarded a TD. If they are touching the ground, they simply have to reach past the goal line (in-bounds or out of bounds). That is why you hear "Goal line extended" being used because it applies not matter where you are in the field for a player touching in-bounds.

Peace

[bigjohn]

These guys say ncaa and fed is the same on this question.

NFHS Forum: Pylon plays
'


First of all, the Fed rules and the NCAA rules regarding placement and interpretations on plays where a ball touches a pylon are identical. The actual wording of the Fed rules are precise w.r.t. placement of the pylon, but aren't too much help when it comes to ruling on the interaction of a ball with the goal line pylon. They carefully say that the pylon is out of bounds, but they also say in case play 1.2.4 that if the pylon is properly placed, the ball would have to penetrate the plane of the goal line before touching the pylon.

The NCAA rule is much more definitive: "A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line." PERIOD. Note, they don't say "...behind the goal line EXTENDED." They say goal line. Is it? Well, not really, but it's an accepted convention to keep us from having to split hairs. Consider a punt that rolls toward the pylon. If it rolls into the pylon's front face, chances are that it actually crossed the inside edge of the sideline at about the 1" line. Are you going to place it there?

In order to avoid these kinds of problems, both the Fed and NCAA have consistently published rulings that say that a ball, loose or in player possession, that touches a pylon is considered to have touched it in the endzone.

[bigjohn]

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...Mjg5ZDIw&hl=en



Referee NON-Subscriber's Free Sample

[bigjohn]

SECTION 2. Out of Bounds
Player Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 1. a. A player or an airborne player is out of bounds when any
part of his person touches anything, other than another player or game
official, on or outside a boundary line (A.R. 4-2-1-I and II).
b. A player or an airborne player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.
RULE 4-2 / BALL IN PLAY , DEAD BALL, OUT OF BOUNDS FR-81
Held Ball Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 2. A ball in player possession is out of bounds when either the
ball or any part of the ball carrier touches the ground or anything else that is
on or outside a boundary line except another player or game official.
Ball Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 3. a. A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores
a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches the ground, a player, a game
official or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line.
b. A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.
c. If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line and then is
declared out of bounds, it is out of bounds at the crossing point.
Out of Bounds at Forward Point
ARTICLE 4. a. If a live ball is declared out of bounds and the ball does not
cross a boundary line, it is out of bounds at the ball’s most forward point
when it was declared dead (A.R. 4-2-4-I) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R.
8-5-1-I).
b. A touchdown may be scored if the ball is inbounds and has broken the
plane of the goal line before or simultaneous to the ball carrier going out
of bounds.
c. A receiver who is in the opponent’s end zone and contacting the ground
is credited with a completion if he reaches over the sideline or end line
and catches a legal pass.
d. The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between
the end lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-II and A.R.
8-5-1-X).
e. When a ball carrier dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as
he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position
of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-III and IV).

http://www.ncaapublications.com/prod...loads/FR09.pdf

[bigjohn]

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...ZjBkMGFh&hl=en

[bearclause]

The ball was mostly over the sideline at the time the ball hit the pylon.

[JRutledge]

That is a TD. The player crossed the goal line while airborne, unless there is something that happens right before this picture was shot (which you cannot determine everything by this picture).

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bearclause

The ball was mostly over the sideline at the time the ball hit the pylon.

In order to touch the inside edge of the pylon, the ball must be in the endzone. Unless the player was out of bounds prior to that moment, you have a TD.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In order to touch the inside edge of the pylon, the ball must be in the endzone. Unless the player was out of bounds prior to that moment, you have a TD.

Here we go . . . What if the ball touched the OUTSIDE of the pylon?

[bigjohn]

Pylon-Gate Hands Michigan a Score -- NCAAFB FanHouse


Player Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 1. a. A player or an airborne player is out of bounds when any
part of his person touches anything, other than another player or game
official, on or outside a boundary line (A.R. 4-2-1-I and II).
b. A player or an airborne player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.


Held Ball Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 2. A ball in player possession is out of bounds when either the
ball or any part of the ball carrier touches the ground or anything else that is
on or outside a boundary line except another player or game official.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

In order to avoid these kinds of problems, both the Fed and NCAA have consistently published rulings that say that a ball, loose or in player possession, that touches a pylon is considered to have touched it in the endzone.

Post one. This is wrong.

If the ball hits the pylon on the inside edge, it has already crossed the goal line and is a TD. If it hits the pylon on the front edge, it has already crossed out of bounds and is not a TD.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Here we go . . . What if the ball touched the OUTSIDE of the pylon?

Don't make it more difficult than it has to be... to answer your question, how did it get there? In front of the pylon? OOB before reaching the EZ.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bearclause

The ball was mostly over the sideline at the time the ball hit the pylon.

This doesn't show us what we need to know... but it appears to me that the ball hit the pylon on the side, not the front. TD.

[Welpe]

From what I understand in NCAA, if the ball touches the pylon (irrespective of which side), it is considered out of bounds beyond (or behind) the goal line. I will dig into the book and some interpretations at lunch time to see if I can find a reference but this may be a philosophy in an effort not to be overly technical.