Dead ball foul, then live ball foul?

[stegenref]

Last night during a 7th grade game, we had the following situation occur. I was working the HL position, and the defense jumped offsides, so I threw my flag and blew my whistle, but the ball was snapped before I was able to run out there and blow my whistle enough times to stop the play...they didn't get very far at all...didn't even make it to the handoff. The LJ on the other side of the field threw his flag too. We both came together in the middle of the field to talk to the WH, who asked what we had. I told him I had encroachment on the defense and the LJ told him he had an illegal formation because there were only six men on the LOS. The WH then penalized both teams. Later, during a time-out, I was asking him how there could be a dead-ball foul followed by a live-ball foul, because how could there be a live-ball foul if the ball was never technically live. He said because I took too long to blow the whistle, so I didn't kill the ball. I told him I thought the ball was "dead by rule" and that the whistle doesn't necessarily kill the ball....the ball was dead as soon as the defense encroached. He told me that I didn't stop the play soon enough, so the ball became live, so there was a live ball foul. That just doesn't seem right to me.

[kdf5]

Your whitehat is an idiot.

[InsideTheStripe]

Hmmm. How should I put this... you're right and he's wrong. I like how he tried to blame you when he's clearly the idiot.

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by stegenref

Last night during a 7th grade game, we had the following situation occur. I was working the HL position, and the defense jumped offsides, so I threw my flag and blew my whistle, but the ball was snapped before I was able to run out there and blow my whistle enough times to stop the play...they didn't get very far at all...didn't even make it to the handoff. The LJ on the other side of the field threw his flag too. We both came together in the middle of the field to talk to the WH, who asked what we had. I told him I had encroachment on the defense and the LJ told him he had an illegal formation because there were only six men on the LOS. The WH then penalized both teams. Later, during a time-out, I was asking him how there could be a dead-ball foul followed by a live-ball foul, because how could there be a live-ball foul if the ball was never technically live. He said because I took too long to blow the whistle, so I didn't kill the ball. I told him I thought the ball was "dead by rule" and that the whistle doesn't necessarily kill the ball....the ball was dead as soon as the defense encroached. He told me that I didn't stop the play soon enough, so the ball became live, so there was a live ball foul. That just doesn't seem right to me.

The white hat was wrong.

See 4-2-1
An official shall indicate the ball remains dead by sounding his whistle immediately when a foul occurs before a snap or free kick.

Ask him what he would do if there were a false start and encroachment. Would he penalize both if the whistle hadn't sounded quick enough?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Your whitehat is an idiot.

What he said.

Originally Posted by kdf5

Your whitehat is an idiot.

What he said...perhaps someone can hint to the white hat that he may need a proctologist appointment.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

....he may need a proctologist appointment.

He might have rectal optosis!

[ajmc]

Stegenref, you were correct, but perhaps more importantly than being correct was the reasoning you used to determine that you were correct. That reasoning will serve you a lot longer and better, than being correct in this situation.

Your Referee was wrong on both the situation, and much more importantly, how he handled it. There are two valuable things you can take from this incident, first; that thinking through the logic of the rule will usually lead you to the correct decision and second; when you get to wear the white hat, that you should welcome questions from crew members because they ALWAYS put you in a win-win situation.

Either you get to explain why you are correct, which would be a positive teaching moment, or after thinking the question through, you may discover you were wrong which gives you an opportunity to avoid making a mistake and learn (or remember) something you should have known.

As for your White Hat, whether he's an idiot or needs a proctologist, is not for either of us to opine. He may have been having a bad day or a brain fart, which all of us are susceptible to from time to time. You might review the general consensus of your research with him, not to show that you were right, (that's evident) but he could benefit from understanding WHY you were right and might even learn the potential benefit available from opening his mind to what his crewmates might offer during the heat of a game.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by stegenref

Last night during a 7th grade game, we had the following situation occur. I was working the HL position, and the defense jumped offsides, so I threw my flag and blew my whistle, but the ball was snapped before I was able to run out there and blow my whistle enough times to stop the play...they didn't get very far at all...didn't even make it to the handoff. The LJ on the other side of the field threw his flag too. We both came together in the middle of the field to talk to the WH, who asked what we had. I told him I had encroachment on the defense and the LJ told him he had an illegal formation because there were only six men on the LOS. The WH then penalized both teams. Later, during a time-out, I was asking him how there could be a dead-ball foul followed by a live-ball foul, because how could there be a live-ball foul if the ball was never technically live. He said because I took too long to blow the whistle, so I didn't kill the ball. I told him I thought the ball was "dead by rule" and that the whistle doesn't necessarily kill the ball....the ball was dead as soon as the defense encroached. He told me that I didn't stop the play soon enough, so the ball became live, so there was a live ball foul. That just doesn't seem right to me.

Has this guy been around a long time? I believe quite some time ago this could happen if the officials didn't stop play before the ball was snapped.

[umpirebob71]

If it was a 7th grade game, could the white hat have been a newer official? That's where the newer guys around here get their start. Just wondering.

[whitehat]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Stegenref, you were correct, but perhaps more importantly than being correct was the reasoning you used to determine that you were correct. That reasoning will serve you a lot longer and better, than being correct in this situation.

Your Referee was wrong on both the situation, and much more importantly, how he handled it. There are two valuable things you can take from this incident, first; that thinking through the logic of the rule will usually lead you to the correct decision and second; when you get to wear the white hat, that you should welcome questions from crew members because they ALWAYS put you in a win-win situation.

Either you get to explain why you are correct, which would be a positive teaching moment, or after thinking the question through, you may discover you were wrong which gives you an opportunity to avoid making a mistake and learn (or remember) something you should have known.

As for your White Hat, whether he's an idiot or needs a proctologist, is not for either of us to opine. He may have been having a bad day or a brain fart, which all of us are susceptible to from time to time. You might review the general consensus of your research with him, not to show that you were right, (that's evident) but he could benefit from understanding WHY you were right and might even learn the potential benefit available from opening his mind to what his crewmates might offer during the heat of a game.

AJmc, well said: I am amazed how many officials, especially some R's have this ego thing that is so much better left at home. I always welcome questions and encourage my crew if they think I am wrong to come to me asap on the field (or halftime or after or whenever is approapriate)and talk about it so we can get it right and learn from it. If we want to create a good learning environment, especially for younger officials, then R's, especially veterans, need to be very "approachable." In my pregame and any other teachable moments I emphasize that we are not here because we are perfect, we are here for the kids and to continue learning each game. No question is a dumb question and no question should be treated as a "challenge" to someones knoweldge or authority. If we are not careful we can greatly undermine the continual learning process by letting our egos get in the way. OK, sorry i am doing some philisophical rambling here... enough already ;-)

[BktBallRef]

Did anyone mention your whitehat is an idiot?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by stegenref

I told him I had encroachment on the defense and the LJ told him he had an illegal formation because there were only six men on the LOS. The WH then penalized both teams. Later, during a time-out, I was asking him how there could be a dead-ball foul followed by a live-ball foul, because how could there be a live-ball foul if the ball was never technically live. He said because I took too long to blow the whistle, so I didn't kill the ball.

Was he a reeeeeal old timer? Because it was like that 40+ yrs. ago.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by umpirebob71

If it was a 7th grade game, could the white hat have been a newer official? That's where the newer guys around here get their start. Just wondering.

Around here midweek 4pm games get anyone who can make it, including largely retirees, regardless of their level of experience.