Kick play

[Mike L]

But if K accepts the penalty, the first touch goes away per your own rule cite. There is now an accepted penalty for a foul during the down.
I have yet to see anyone cite a casebook or Reddings example that talks about a kick, R-foul, K-touch, R-fumble, K-in possession at the end play.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mike L

But if K accepts the penalty, the first touch goes away per your own rule cite.

I don't think that's correct. Here's the relevant sentence:

"The right of R to take the ball at spot of first
touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down
commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down."

What exactly is canceled: the right of R to the ball, or the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching? I would argue that it's the latter: a PSK penalty will be marched off from the spot of first touching, and R keeps the ball.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't think that's correct. Here's the relevant sentence:

"The right of R to take the ball at spot of first
touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down
commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down."

What exactly is canceled: the right of R to the ball, or the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching? I would argue that it's the latter: a PSK penalty will be marched off from the spot of first touching, and R keeps the ball.

Why would a PSK foul be marched off from the spot of first touching? That is not necessarily either the spot of the foul or the end of the kick. And does this interp also mean a foul by K will be enforced from the first touch spot as well? I'm confused.

Here's the way I read the rule:
The right of R to take the ball at spot of 1st touch is cancelled if:
1) R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or
2) the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

[Dale Smith]

The best way the I can put it is anytime a foul (is accepted) it trumps a first touching.

[Mike L]

Which is supported by the 2008 Football Fundamentals (don't have my 2009 books here).

IV. Kicks - General

7. First touching of a kick by K is always ignored if the penalty is accepted for a foul during the down.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Why would a PSK foul be marched off from the spot of first touching?

Good point. That's not what I meant: a PSK foul, if accepted, will prevent R from putting the ball in play at the spot of first touching. That means they will not have the right to put the ball in play from there.

Once K is guilty of first touching, R will put the ball in play next no matter what happens during the return (muff, fumble, etc.). That's pretty straightforward.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Once K is guilty of first touching, R will put the ball in play next no matter what happens during the return (muff, fumble, etc.). That's pretty straightforward.

Not true. If R fouls after the touch or if there is an accepted penalty for a foul during the down, the touch goes away. You can't enforce the touch, and then proceed to something that would make the touch go away. In the OP, K accepting the penalty for R's foul makes the touch go away. You now have K next to put the ball in play due to the fumble recovery, so PSK goes away. So, in the end you have a previous spot enforcement. Of course K could decline the penalty and give the ball to R at the spot of first touching, but why would they?

[ref1986]

Guys,

This play has been around for a couple of years. The confusion is a consequence of a rule change. Compare the 2008 and 2007 rule books. In 2007, PSK also included the provision that if K was in possession at the end of the down, it was not PSK. That disappeared in 2008. So in 2007, this play is clearly not PSK because K is in possession at the end of the down. That's the way the PSK rule was intended. So why did this disppear in 2008?

Consider:

4th and 5 at the 50. K1's kick hits at the 20 where it is touched by K2. It bounces back to the 22 where K3 downs it. During the kick R1 held K4 at the 40. PSK, right? Mark it off from the end of the kick, which is the 22.

But under the 2007 rule, if K is in possession of the ball at the end of the down, it's not PSK. Since K3 had to possess the ball for the kick to become dead, by rule K was in possession at the end of the down! It would be previous spot and 1st down for K! That's clearly not what was intended by the PSK rule. So it came out. But the intent that the play we're discussing not be PSK remained. They assumed the new language covered that.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Not true. If R fouls after the touch or if there is an accepted penalty for a foul during the down, the touch goes away. You can't enforce the touch, and then proceed to something that would make the touch go away. In the OP, K accepting the penalty for R's foul makes the touch go away. You now have K next to put the ball in play due to the fumble recovery, so PSK goes away. So, in the end you have a previous spot enforcement. Of course K could decline the penalty and give the ball to R at the spot of first touching, but why would they?

It depends on what you mean by "makes the touch go away." As a spot for the next play and an option for R, it does go away, that's true.

But it does not go away for determining who will next put the ball in play. Hence the comment already quoted from Reddings: "Redding's Guide to NFHS Football by George Demetriou on pg 59: 'Team K may not keep possession, even if it recovers a muff or a fumble, as this is the price for having touched the ball too soon.'"

A post-possession foul by R means that they do not have the option of taking the ball at the spot of first touching. But first touching will still prevent K from getting possession during the down.

And that means that a pre-possession foul during this play is PSK.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It depends on what you mean by "makes the touch go away." As a spot for the next play and an option for R, it does go away, that's true.

But it does not go away for determining who will next put the ball in play. Hence the comment already quoted from Reddings: "Redding's Guide to NFHS Football by George Demetriou on pg 59: 'Team K may not keep possession, even if it recovers a muff or a fumble, as this is the price for having touched the ball too soon.'"

A post-possession foul by R means that they do not have the option of taking the ball at the spot of first touching. But first touching will still prevent K from getting possession during the down.

And that means that a pre-possession foul during this play is PSK.

But that interp says NOTHING about an accepted foul that both the rules and the fundamentals say makes the touch go away! K will be next to put the ball in play because they've recovered the fumble. You can't say they won't because of the touch and then make the touch go away because of the foul. That is a completely illogical way to order how you are going to resolve the situation.