Kick play

[UpNorthRef]

"Because in the OP with a turnover, you also have first touching. Why is one case of first touching "garden variety" and another ignored?"

Because the play is over when K secured possession of the kick in example 2. In the original play there was only first touching and the play continued.

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by UpNorthRef

"Because in the OP with a turnover, you also have first touching. Why is one case of first touching "garden variety" and another ignored?"

Because the play is over when K secured possession of the kick in example 2. In the original play there was only first touching and the play continued.

So what if the play continues? R still has the right to put the ball into play at the spot of first touching, even if they subsequently possess the ball and fumble it. The only time R gives up this right is a) if R commits a penalty after touching the ball or b) any live ball penalty is accepted.

Do we all agree that in the OP, if R did not foul, R could take the ball at the spot of first touching from Rule 6-2-5?

I think the confusion is the 'live ball penalty accepted' part, is that right? You are wanting to say the holding by R negates the first touching, which then makes 'K the next to put the ball in play' which negates the requirements for a PSK foul. I believe that is the confusion, which is why I put in the second example.

If you follow this logic in the second 'garden variety' example, you would say that we are accepting the foul, negating K's first touching. K has possession of the ball so we don't have a PSK foul. This is absurd. The real answer is that R has the right to put the ball into play at the spot of first touching, so K will not be the next to put the ball into play. All of the criteria for a PSK foul is met, so the holding foul will be penalized using PSK foul enforcement. Now look at the OP. The same answer applies. Exact same answer.

My request is that instead of blowing off the alternate example by stating it is 'garden variety,' that you explain why the hold is enforced as PSK foul and USE THE SAME LOGIC to explain why the OP is not a PSK foul.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

My request is that instead of blowing off the alternate example by stating it is 'garden variety,' that you explain why the hold is enforced as PSK foul and USE THE SAME LOGIC to explain why the OP is not a PSK foul.

I believe that I've already done that. The difference between your garden variety PSK situation and the OP is the turnover. Your answer to the OP seems to ignore the turnover, which would explain why extending the logic from your situation to the OP is incorrect.

I think that the confusion comes from how you're handling first touching. According to 2-16-6, "Game situations which produce results somewhat similar to penalties, but which are not classified as fouls are: disqualification of a player, first touching of a kick by K and forfeiture of a game."

The way that you're treating first touching, it seems to negate the turnover. That would make the case easy, because then all of the PSK criteria apply to the foul by R.

Others seem to think that the negating goes the other way: by turning the ball over, the first touching is negated. Can you cite a rule or case to justify your ruling? For my part, I'm not sure how to square 5-1-3 f & g.

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I believe that I've already done that. The difference between your garden variety PSK situation and the OP is the turnover. Your answer to the OP seems to ignore the turnover, which would explain why extending the logic from your situation to the OP is incorrect.

I think that the confusion comes from how you're handling first touching. According to 2-16-6, "Game situations which produce results somewhat similar to penalties, but which are not classified as fouls are: disqualification of a player, first touching of a kick by K and forfeiture of a game."

The way that you're treating first touching, it seems to negate the turnover. That would make the case easy, because then all of the PSK criteria apply to the foul by R.

Others seem to think that the negating goes the other way: by turning the ball over, the first touching is negated. Can you cite a rule or case to justify your ruling? For my part, I'm not sure how to square 5-1-3 f & g.

6-1-6 and 6-2-5 are the rules I would cite (they are long).

Case 6.2.5A K1 attempts to down a punt beyond the neutral zone, but his touching only slows it down. The bouncing ball is subsequently recovered by R1 who advances 25 yards but then fumbles and K2 recovers. K2 is immediately tackled. Ruling: R may take the results of the play or retain possession by taking the ball at the spot of first touching. R can exercise this option, unless after R1 touches the ball, R commits a foul or the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

Reading Redding's Guide to NFHS Football by George Demetriou on pg 59: 'Team K may not keep possession, even if it recovers a muff or a fumble, as this is the price for having touched the ball too soon.'

So, if during a kick we have first touching by K, recovery by R, fumble by R, recovery by K, then R can take the ball at first touching as long as R does not commit a foul after they legally touch (i.e. not forced touching) the kick. This is supported by the Case book and Redding's guide.

[Mike L]

But if K accepts the penalty, the first touch goes away per your own rule cite. There is now an accepted penalty for a foul during the down.
I have yet to see anyone cite a casebook or Reddings example that talks about a kick, R-foul, K-touch, R-fumble, K-in possession at the end play.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mike L

But if K accepts the penalty, the first touch goes away per your own rule cite.

I don't think that's correct. Here's the relevant sentence:

"The right of R to take the ball at spot of first
touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down
commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down."

What exactly is canceled: the right of R to the ball, or the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching? I would argue that it's the latter: a PSK penalty will be marched off from the spot of first touching, and R keeps the ball.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't think that's correct. Here's the relevant sentence:

"The right of R to take the ball at spot of first
touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down
commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down."

What exactly is canceled: the right of R to the ball, or the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching? I would argue that it's the latter: a PSK penalty will be marched off from the spot of first touching, and R keeps the ball.

Why would a PSK foul be marched off from the spot of first touching? That is not necessarily either the spot of the foul or the end of the kick. And does this interp also mean a foul by K will be enforced from the first touch spot as well? I'm confused.

Here's the way I read the rule:
The right of R to take the ball at spot of 1st touch is cancelled if:
1) R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or
2) the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

[Dale Smith]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

6-1-6 and 6-2-5 are the rules I would cite (they are long).

Case 6.2.5A K1 attempts to down a punt beyond the neutral zone, but his touching only slows it down. The bouncing ball is subsequently recovered by R1 who advances 25 yards but then fumbles and K2 recovers. K2 is immediately tackled. Ruling: R may take the results of the play or retain possession by taking the ball at the spot of first touching. R can exercise this option, unless after R1 touches the ball, R commits a foul or the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

Reading Redding's Guide to NFHS Football by George Demetriou on pg 59: 'Team K may not keep possession, even if it recovers a muff or a fumble, as this is the price for having touched the ball too soon.'

So, if during a kick we have first touching by K, recovery by R, fumble by R, recovery by K, then R can take the ball at first touching as long as R does not commit a foul after they legally touch (i.e. not forced touching) the kick. This is supported by the Case book and Redding's guide.

What none of the cases that you provide as examples have is a foul by R during the kick. Without the foul the examples are correct. But with the foul as stated in the OP, if K accepts the penalty for the hold the first touching by K is ignored per rule 6-2-5. Without first touching, K is the next to snap the ball, therefore no PSK enforcement. Since the foul is a loose ball foul the enforcement spot is the previous spot. The result is K’s ball 1-10 at K’s 40.

If K declines the penalty it is R’s ball at the spot of first touching.

Lesson for R is if you commit a foul during a scrimmage kick don’t lose possession of the ball.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

6-1-6 and 6-2-5 are the rules I would cite (they are long).

Case 6.2.5A K1 attempts to down a punt beyond the neutral zone, but his touching only slows it down. The bouncing ball is subsequently recovered by R1 who advances 25 yards but then fumbles and K2 recovers. K2 is immediately tackled. Ruling: R may take the results of the play or retain possession by taking the ball at the spot of first touching. R can exercise this option, unless after R1 touches the ball, R commits a foul or the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

Reading Redding's Guide to NFHS Football by George Demetriou on pg 59: 'Team K may not keep possession, even if it recovers a muff or a fumble, as this is the price for having touched the ball too soon.'

So, if during a kick we have first touching by K, recovery by R, fumble by R, recovery by K, then R can take the ball at first touching as long as R does not commit a foul after they legally touch (i.e. not forced touching) the kick. This is supported by the Case book and Redding's guide.

You're right. I was misreading the "unless" clause in 5-1-3f: it fails to specify that the condition is R committing a post-possession foul.

Since first touching by K gives R a (nearly irrevocable) right to the ball, the pre-possession foul by R in the OP will be PSK.

Thanks for helping to sort this out.

[ppaltice]

Again, I hate to keep harping on this, but I think you should understand a simpler play first. Here is the same play I referenced before:

PLAY1: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 falls on the untouched kick at R15 yard line.

In this play, R NEVER has possession of the ball. They never touch the ball. But the first touching rule allows R to put the ball in play next.

If you think the foul by R33 is a PSK foul, then it is because you acknowledge that first touching meets 2-16-2h5: 'And K will not be the next to put the ball in play.'

Yes, if we have an accepted foul, R cannot take the ball at the spot of first touching. They will get the ball at the spot from the enforcement of the PSK foul (either the end of the kick or the spot of the foul). And yes, the basic spot is the end of the kick, not the spot of first touching.

Now, if we accept that first touching meets 2-16-2h5, then the OP's question will also be a PSK foul and if accepted, will be enforced from the end of the kick or the spot of the foul.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

Again, I hate to keep harping on this, but I think you should understand a simpler play first. Here is the same play I referenced before:

PLAY1: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 falls on the untouched kick at R15 yard line.

In this play, R NEVER has possession of the ball. They never touch the ball. But the first touching rule allows R to put the ball in play next.

If you think the foul by R33 is a PSK foul, then it is because you acknowledge that first touching meets 2-16-2h5: 'And K will not be the next to put the ball in play.'

Yes, if we have an accepted foul, R cannot take the ball at the spot of first touching. They will get the ball at the spot from the enforcement of the PSK foul (either the end of the kick or the spot of the foul). And yes, the basic spot is the end of the kick, not the spot of first touching.

Now, if we accept that first touching meets 2-16-2h5, then the OP's question will also be a PSK foul and if accepted, will be enforced from the end of the kick or the spot of the foul.

What I hate to keep harping on is the rule and fundamental that says the first touching is ignored if there is an accepted foul during the down. If it's to be ignored, then none of the consequences of a first touch come into play. You can attempt to use whatever example you want to make it come back for some sort of enforcement, but ignored is pretty easy English to understand. So it now comes down to who would be next to put the ball in play. It's going to be K because of a fumble recovery. So you can't have PSK, condition 5 for PSK is not met. K must accept the penalty to make the touch go away. The PSK portion is gone. You are left with previous spot enforcement.

[ppaltice]

The rules 6-1-6 and 6-2-5 does not say 'first touching ignored' but rather 'the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching is cancelled...'

One more play (as I cannot find this exact play as the OP). I am not sure if you will accept it as it comes from Redding's Guide.

Chapt 6, Play 20. On a punt, the untouched ball is bouncing at Team R's five yard line when K26 legally bats the ball backwards into R32. While the ball is rolling loose, R65 clips at the 10 yard line. The ball is recovered by prone K10 at the two yard line. RULING: The forced touching is disregarded, thus Team R would next put the ball in play. Consequently, R65's foul has PSK enforcement. The penalty is enforced from the end of kick, Team R's two yard line. Team R loses the right to take the ball at the spot of first touching because the penalty is accepted. If Team K declines the penalty, Team R will choose the spot of first touching (Team R's 5 yard line) because R65's foul occurred before Team R (legally) touched the ball.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

The rules 6-1-6 and 6-2-5 does not say 'first touching ignored' but rather 'the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching is cancelled...'

One more play (as I cannot find this exact play as the OP). I am not sure if you will accept it as it comes from Redding's Guide.

Chapt 6, Play 20. On a punt, the untouched ball is bouncing at Team R's five yard line when K26 legally bats the ball backwards into R32. While the ball is rolling loose, R65 clips at the 10 yard line. The ball is recovered by prone K10 at the two yard line. RULING: The forced touching is disregarded, thus Team R would next put the ball in play. Consequently, R65's foul has PSK enforcement. The penalty is enforced from the end of kick, Team R's two yard line. Team R loses the right to take the ball at the spot of first touching because the penalty is accepted. If Team K declines the penalty, Team R will choose the spot of first touching (Team R's 5 yard line) because R65's foul occurred before Team R (legally) touched the ball.

Sure I accept Reddings. Your problem remains your example does not reflect what happened in the OP. K is not the next to put the ball in play because the touching by R is ignored. Why are you willing to disregard a touch as specified under one rule but not under the other?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

The rules 6-1-6 and 6-2-5 does not say 'first touching ignored' but rather 'the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching is cancelled...'

One more play (as I cannot find this exact play as the OP). I am not sure if you will accept it as it comes from Redding's Guide.

Chapt 6, Play 20. On a punt, the untouched ball is bouncing at Team R's five yard line when K26 legally bats the ball backwards into R32. While the ball is rolling loose, R65 clips at the 10 yard line. The ball is recovered by prone K10 at the two yard line. RULING: The forced touching is disregarded, thus Team R would next put the ball in play. Consequently, R65's foul has PSK enforcement. The penalty is enforced from the end of kick, Team R's two yard line. Team R loses the right to take the ball at the spot of first touching because the penalty is accepted. If Team K declines the penalty, Team R will choose the spot of first touching (Team R's 5 yard line) because R65's foul occurred before Team R (legally) touched the ball.

Not my sport, but I enjoy drifting over here to take in the fun and learn a bunch. But I think you're talking past each other and I think I know why so please forgive my intrusion.

The clarifying situation might be this:
K kicks to R's 10 yard line where K commits first touching. The ball then bounds toward the endzone. It is recovered by K (untouched by R) a) in the endzone or b) at the 1 yard line.

If I understand correctly, R has the option in a) to take the ball at the spot of first touching or the touchback. In b) they have the option to take the ball at the spot of first touching or the one yard line. In a they will choose the 20. In b) they will choose the 10.

This is because when K recovers a kick untouched by R the ball belongs to R. (This might occur simultaneously to first touching.)

If that's correct, then if we add a penalty for R committed during the kick we get these results.
In a) they must take the touchback, penalty from there. In b) they must take the ball at the 1 yard line, penalty from there.


Hopefully, even if I've gotten that completely wrong correcting me will be informative for all.
________
thai property in Pattaya

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mike L

What I hate to keep harping on is the rule and fundamental that says the first touching is ignored if there is an accepted foul during the down.

Set aside the "fundamental" and look at the rule. It says that R cannot take the ball at the spot of first touching if a penalty is taken. That does not mean that first touching is completely ignored. It's a point about where the ball will next be snapped, not about who will snap it.