Kick play

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Once K is guilty of first touching, R will put the ball in play next no matter what happens during the return (muff, fumble, etc.). That's pretty straightforward.

Not true. If R fouls after the touch or if there is an accepted penalty for a foul during the down, the touch goes away. You can't enforce the touch, and then proceed to something that would make the touch go away. In the OP, K accepting the penalty for R's foul makes the touch go away. You now have K next to put the ball in play due to the fumble recovery, so PSK goes away. So, in the end you have a previous spot enforcement. Of course K could decline the penalty and give the ball to R at the spot of first touching, but why would they?

[ref1986]

Guys,

This play has been around for a couple of years. The confusion is a consequence of a rule change. Compare the 2008 and 2007 rule books. In 2007, PSK also included the provision that if K was in possession at the end of the down, it was not PSK. That disappeared in 2008. So in 2007, this play is clearly not PSK because K is in possession at the end of the down. That's the way the PSK rule was intended. So why did this disppear in 2008?

Consider:

4th and 5 at the 50. K1's kick hits at the 20 where it is touched by K2. It bounces back to the 22 where K3 downs it. During the kick R1 held K4 at the 40. PSK, right? Mark it off from the end of the kick, which is the 22.

But under the 2007 rule, if K is in possession of the ball at the end of the down, it's not PSK. Since K3 had to possess the ball for the kick to become dead, by rule K was in possession at the end of the down! It would be previous spot and 1st down for K! That's clearly not what was intended by the PSK rule. So it came out. But the intent that the play we're discussing not be PSK remained. They assumed the new language covered that.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Not true. If R fouls after the touch or if there is an accepted penalty for a foul during the down, the touch goes away. You can't enforce the touch, and then proceed to something that would make the touch go away. In the OP, K accepting the penalty for R's foul makes the touch go away. You now have K next to put the ball in play due to the fumble recovery, so PSK goes away. So, in the end you have a previous spot enforcement. Of course K could decline the penalty and give the ball to R at the spot of first touching, but why would they?

It depends on what you mean by "makes the touch go away." As a spot for the next play and an option for R, it does go away, that's true.

But it does not go away for determining who will next put the ball in play. Hence the comment already quoted from Reddings: "Redding's Guide to NFHS Football by George Demetriou on pg 59: 'Team K may not keep possession, even if it recovers a muff or a fumble, as this is the price for having touched the ball too soon.'"

A post-possession foul by R means that they do not have the option of taking the ball at the spot of first touching. But first touching will still prevent K from getting possession during the down.

And that means that a pre-possession foul during this play is PSK.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It depends on what you mean by "makes the touch go away." As a spot for the next play and an option for R, it does go away, that's true.

But it does not go away for determining who will next put the ball in play. Hence the comment already quoted from Reddings: "Redding's Guide to NFHS Football by George Demetriou on pg 59: 'Team K may not keep possession, even if it recovers a muff or a fumble, as this is the price for having touched the ball too soon.'"

A post-possession foul by R means that they do not have the option of taking the ball at the spot of first touching. But first touching will still prevent K from getting possession during the down.

And that means that a pre-possession foul during this play is PSK.

But that interp says NOTHING about an accepted foul that both the rules and the fundamentals say makes the touch go away! K will be next to put the ball in play because they've recovered the fumble. You can't say they won't because of the touch and then make the touch go away because of the foul. That is a completely illogical way to order how you are going to resolve the situation.