Kick play

[ppaltice]

What is your ruling on this:

PLAY1: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 falls on the untouched kick at R15 yard line.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

What is your ruling on this:

PLAY1: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 falls on the untouched kick at R15 yard line.

Garden variety PSK and first touching. Half the distance from R15, 1/10 for R at R7.5, snap.

Why is this play instructive? The complication of the OP comes from the turnover.

[ppaltice]

Because in the OP with a turnover, you also have first touching. Why is one case of first touching "garden variety" and another ignored?

[VALJ]

The play you post is the very definition of PSK - R's foul occurs after the snap, beyond the NZ, before the kick ends, and R will be the team to put the ball into play.

[UpNorthRef]

"Because in the OP with a turnover, you also have first touching. Why is one case of first touching "garden variety" and another ignored?"

Because the play is over when K secured possession of the kick in example 2. In the original play there was only first touching and the play continued.

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by UpNorthRef

"Because in the OP with a turnover, you also have first touching. Why is one case of first touching "garden variety" and another ignored?"

Because the play is over when K secured possession of the kick in example 2. In the original play there was only first touching and the play continued.

So what if the play continues? R still has the right to put the ball into play at the spot of first touching, even if they subsequently possess the ball and fumble it. The only time R gives up this right is a) if R commits a penalty after touching the ball or b) any live ball penalty is accepted.

Do we all agree that in the OP, if R did not foul, R could take the ball at the spot of first touching from Rule 6-2-5?

I think the confusion is the 'live ball penalty accepted' part, is that right? You are wanting to say the holding by R negates the first touching, which then makes 'K the next to put the ball in play' which negates the requirements for a PSK foul. I believe that is the confusion, which is why I put in the second example.

If you follow this logic in the second 'garden variety' example, you would say that we are accepting the foul, negating K's first touching. K has possession of the ball so we don't have a PSK foul. This is absurd. The real answer is that R has the right to put the ball into play at the spot of first touching, so K will not be the next to put the ball into play. All of the criteria for a PSK foul is met, so the holding foul will be penalized using PSK foul enforcement. Now look at the OP. The same answer applies. Exact same answer.

My request is that instead of blowing off the alternate example by stating it is 'garden variety,' that you explain why the hold is enforced as PSK foul and USE THE SAME LOGIC to explain why the OP is not a PSK foul.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

My request is that instead of blowing off the alternate example by stating it is 'garden variety,' that you explain why the hold is enforced as PSK foul and USE THE SAME LOGIC to explain why the OP is not a PSK foul.

I believe that I've already done that. The difference between your garden variety PSK situation and the OP is the turnover. Your answer to the OP seems to ignore the turnover, which would explain why extending the logic from your situation to the OP is incorrect.

I think that the confusion comes from how you're handling first touching. According to 2-16-6, "Game situations which produce results somewhat similar to penalties, but which are not classified as fouls are: disqualification of a player, first touching of a kick by K and forfeiture of a game."

The way that you're treating first touching, it seems to negate the turnover. That would make the case easy, because then all of the PSK criteria apply to the foul by R.

Others seem to think that the negating goes the other way: by turning the ball over, the first touching is negated. Can you cite a rule or case to justify your ruling? For my part, I'm not sure how to square 5-1-3 f & g.

[ppaltice]

Again, I hate to keep harping on this, but I think you should understand a simpler play first. Here is the same play I referenced before:

PLAY1: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 falls on the untouched kick at R15 yard line.

In this play, R NEVER has possession of the ball. They never touch the ball. But the first touching rule allows R to put the ball in play next.

If you think the foul by R33 is a PSK foul, then it is because you acknowledge that first touching meets 2-16-2h5: 'And K will not be the next to put the ball in play.'

Yes, if we have an accepted foul, R cannot take the ball at the spot of first touching. They will get the ball at the spot from the enforcement of the PSK foul (either the end of the kick or the spot of the foul). And yes, the basic spot is the end of the kick, not the spot of first touching.

Now, if we accept that first touching meets 2-16-2h5, then the OP's question will also be a PSK foul and if accepted, will be enforced from the end of the kick or the spot of the foul.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

Again, I hate to keep harping on this, but I think you should understand a simpler play first. Here is the same play I referenced before:

PLAY1: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 falls on the untouched kick at R15 yard line.

In this play, R NEVER has possession of the ball. They never touch the ball. But the first touching rule allows R to put the ball in play next.

If you think the foul by R33 is a PSK foul, then it is because you acknowledge that first touching meets 2-16-2h5: 'And K will not be the next to put the ball in play.'

Yes, if we have an accepted foul, R cannot take the ball at the spot of first touching. They will get the ball at the spot from the enforcement of the PSK foul (either the end of the kick or the spot of the foul). And yes, the basic spot is the end of the kick, not the spot of first touching.

Now, if we accept that first touching meets 2-16-2h5, then the OP's question will also be a PSK foul and if accepted, will be enforced from the end of the kick or the spot of the foul.

What I hate to keep harping on is the rule and fundamental that says the first touching is ignored if there is an accepted foul during the down. If it's to be ignored, then none of the consequences of a first touch come into play. You can attempt to use whatever example you want to make it come back for some sort of enforcement, but ignored is pretty easy English to understand. So it now comes down to who would be next to put the ball in play. It's going to be K because of a fumble recovery. So you can't have PSK, condition 5 for PSK is not met. K must accept the penalty to make the touch go away. The PSK portion is gone. You are left with previous spot enforcement.