Trick Play from Memphis-Louisville Game

[mbyron]

Many will see it, and many will be taken by surprise and allow it.

I'm always looking for ways to defuse crap like that. One thing you could do: grant the timeout. The coach will complain, and you can say: "Coach, if you go ahead with that trick play, it'll cost you 15 yards. This way, it costs only a timeout. Your choice."

[sloth]

Friday night, I flag this as a referee...Saturday (or DIII JV game) I let it go.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Many will see it, and many will be taken by surprise and allow it.

I'm always looking for ways to defuse crap like that. One thing you could do: grant the timeout. The coach will complain, and you can say: "Coach, if you go ahead with that trick play, it'll cost you 15 yards. This way, it costs only a timeout. Your choice."

The thing was, that wasn't a valid time out signal. That was just a....rolling of the hands (I have no idea what he may have said while making that signal). But unless I hear the words "time out" from someone who can call a time out OR if I see the hands crossed in a T (preferably both), if they have a time out and the ball isn't live, I'm granting the time out.

Now, if NCAA has a rule akin to ours about verbalizations or acts designed to make the defense believe the snap is not imminent, then there's your out. And I'm not letting this go in an NFHS game or a Pop Warner game.

That would be a foul at the snap, right? Live ball foul? If they score, they score, but you're bringing it back?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

That would be a foul at the snap, right? Live ball foul? If they score, they score, but you're bringing it back?

Dead ball foul in FED. Kill it as soon as you recognize it.

Case Book

9.9.3 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, "Where’s the tee?" A2 replies, "I'll go get it" and goes legally in motion toward his team’s sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.

RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.

COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

[OverAndBack]

Okay, I get that. But bear with me for a second...a quarterback who comes out from behind center...(so far we have nothing)...walks to a part of the field...(so far we still have nothing)...makes some hand motion that is not a time out (so far still nothing)...says or doesn't say something that may or may not be even English or football-related (still nothing)...could still, conceivably (if there's time on the play clock), get the signal, nod his head, walk up and go back under center and run a play with everybody ready for the snap, correct?

I understand the "where's the tee?" stuff and the "I'll go get it" bit and it's obviously deception that's not sportsmanlike, but until there's an actual snap that IS deceptive, you're kinda making a judgment call (that may be pre-emptive). I know, we make judgment calls all the time, but in the Memphis case above (let's assume it happened in NFHS, just for argument's sake), the quarterback could STILL have gone back under center and run a completely legal play, correct? And, you'd assume, the defense would see that and line up and be ready for it.

I'm just sayin'. We let a team that's shifting illegally or that has a bad formation get itself in proper alignment because it's not a foul until they actually snap the ball. I know what the casebook says about the "missing tee" instance (and it probably applies to the "wrong ball" type thing, too), but the specific play in the original post may or may not rise to that same level depending on the verbiage used.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Okay, I get that. But bear with me for a second...a quarterback who comes out from behind center...(so far we have nothing)...walks to a part of the field...(so far we still have nothing)...makes some hand motion that is not a time out (so far still nothing)...says or doesn't say something that may or may not be even English or football-related (still nothing)...could still, conceivably (if there's time on the play clock), get the signal, nod his head, walk up and go back under center and run a play with everybody ready for the snap, correct?

I understand the "where's the tee?" stuff and the "I'll go get it" bit and it's obviously deception that's not sportsmanlike, but until there's an actual snap that IS deceptive, you're kinda making a judgment call (that may be pre-emptive). I know, we make judgment calls all the time, but in the Memphis case above (let's assume it happened in NFHS, just for argument's sake), the quarterback could STILL have gone back under center and run a completely legal play, correct? And, you'd assume, the defense would see that and line up and be ready for it.

I'm just sayin'. We let a team that's shifting illegally or that has a bad formation get itself in proper alignment because it's not a foul until they actually snap the ball. I know what the casebook says about the "missing tee" instance (and it probably applies to the "wrong ball" type thing, too), but the specific play in the original post may or may not rise to that same level depending on the verbiage used.

I say if the ball is snapped while the QB is walking away like that, I kill the play immediately and penalize USC. You are correct that everything they did up to the snap was legal and he can get back under center. That would be fine. But that's not what ultimately happened here.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Okay, I get that. But bear with me for a second...a quarterback who comes out from behind center...(so far we have nothing)...walks to a part of the field...(so far we still have nothing)...makes some hand motion that is not a time out (so far still nothing)...says or doesn't say something that may or may not be even English or football-related (still nothing)...could still, conceivably (if there's time on the play clock), get the signal, nod his head, walk up and go back under center and run a play with everybody ready for the snap, correct?

I understand the "where's the tee?" stuff and the "I'll go get it" bit and it's obviously deception that's not sportsmanlike, but until there's an actual snap that IS deceptive, you're kinda making a judgment call (that may be pre-emptive). I know, we make judgment calls all the time, but in the Memphis case above (let's assume it happened in NFHS, just for argument's sake), the quarterback could STILL have gone back under center and run a completely legal play, correct? And, you'd assume, the defense would see that and line up and be ready for it.

I'm just sayin'. We let a team that's shifting illegally or that has a bad formation get itself in proper alignment because it's not a foul until they actually snap the ball. I know what the casebook says about the "missing tee" instance (and it probably applies to the "wrong ball" type thing, too), but the specific play in the original post may or may not rise to that same level depending on the verbiage used.

Here's the key phrase:

actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal

Watch the video and check out how the defense reacts when the QB turns away from the snapper.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Watch the video and check out how the defense reacts when the QB turns away from the snapper.

Good point, I hadn't really focused on their reaction before. The linebackers that are positioned to rush all stand up and relax, the ball is then snapped.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Here's the key phrase:

actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal

Watch the video and check out how the defense reacts when the QB turns away from the snapper.

Fair enough. I guess it's no different than gauging intent for an intentional grounding or something similar. You'd better be right, though, and until there actually IS a snap that came while the defense believed it wasn't imminent, it's a tricky situation.

I see what you're saying, but I also see the point of view that they COULD make things right, no harm, no foul, before the snap. Not THAT snap, obviously. But a normal snap.

[BoomerSooner]

Would anybody rule differently if he had gone down the line to talk to a receiver? Just asking because my thought is that if they are conversing or signaling with the sideline then I'm calling this every time. It is that portion of it that makes it suspect in my mind. I think there are forms of deception that include snaping the ball to someone other than the center such as my description that should be allowed, but once you move toward the sideline or make a signal in the vicinity of the ref, we've got a penalty.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

I see what you're saying, but I also see the point of view that they COULD make things right, no harm, no foul, before the snap. Not THAT snap, obviously. But a normal snap.

Very true, which is why you hold the flag and whistle until the snap. I had a similar play in a JV game a couple of weeks ago. The offense came to the line and got set. The QB then stepped away and started walking to his sideline and calling out something to his coach.

At this point the warning flags in my head were raised. When the ball was snapped I was ready for it. This was the first snap from scrimmage in the second half. Fortunately one of the other officials and I were just discussing this type of play during half time.

If it doesn't look like a football play it probably isn't.