Trick Play from Memphis-Louisville Game

[aschramm]

I'm assuming you would flag it because it's not in the spirit of the rules/game, and that's more than just natural deception? Other than that I can't see any reason to flag it.

If anyone were to flag it, how would you approach the coach after that, assuming he's upset you penalized him?

[Bad Mood Risin]

The Case Book is clear: Any action or verbage designed to make the defense think the snap is not iminent is ... unsportsmanlike conduct

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Bad Mood Risin

The Case Book is clear: Any action or verbage designed to make the defense think the snap is not iminent is ... unsportsmanlike conduct

I agree. So who here will be seeing this play this weekend?

[mbyron]

Many will see it, and many will be taken by surprise and allow it.

I'm always looking for ways to defuse crap like that. One thing you could do: grant the timeout. The coach will complain, and you can say: "Coach, if you go ahead with that trick play, it'll cost you 15 yards. This way, it costs only a timeout. Your choice."

[sloth]

Friday night, I flag this as a referee...Saturday (or DIII JV game) I let it go.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Many will see it, and many will be taken by surprise and allow it.

I'm always looking for ways to defuse crap like that. One thing you could do: grant the timeout. The coach will complain, and you can say: "Coach, if you go ahead with that trick play, it'll cost you 15 yards. This way, it costs only a timeout. Your choice."

The thing was, that wasn't a valid time out signal. That was just a....rolling of the hands (I have no idea what he may have said while making that signal). But unless I hear the words "time out" from someone who can call a time out OR if I see the hands crossed in a T (preferably both), if they have a time out and the ball isn't live, I'm granting the time out.

Now, if NCAA has a rule akin to ours about verbalizations or acts designed to make the defense believe the snap is not imminent, then there's your out. And I'm not letting this go in an NFHS game or a Pop Warner game.

That would be a foul at the snap, right? Live ball foul? If they score, they score, but you're bringing it back?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

That would be a foul at the snap, right? Live ball foul? If they score, they score, but you're bringing it back?

Dead ball foul in FED. Kill it as soon as you recognize it.

Case Book

9.9.3 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, "Where’s the tee?" A2 replies, "I'll go get it" and goes legally in motion toward his team’s sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.

RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.

COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

[OverAndBack]

Okay, I get that. But bear with me for a second...a quarterback who comes out from behind center...(so far we have nothing)...walks to a part of the field...(so far we still have nothing)...makes some hand motion that is not a time out (so far still nothing)...says or doesn't say something that may or may not be even English or football-related (still nothing)...could still, conceivably (if there's time on the play clock), get the signal, nod his head, walk up and go back under center and run a play with everybody ready for the snap, correct?

I understand the "where's the tee?" stuff and the "I'll go get it" bit and it's obviously deception that's not sportsmanlike, but until there's an actual snap that IS deceptive, you're kinda making a judgment call (that may be pre-emptive). I know, we make judgment calls all the time, but in the Memphis case above (let's assume it happened in NFHS, just for argument's sake), the quarterback could STILL have gone back under center and run a completely legal play, correct? And, you'd assume, the defense would see that and line up and be ready for it.

I'm just sayin'. We let a team that's shifting illegally or that has a bad formation get itself in proper alignment because it's not a foul until they actually snap the ball. I know what the casebook says about the "missing tee" instance (and it probably applies to the "wrong ball" type thing, too), but the specific play in the original post may or may not rise to that same level depending on the verbiage used.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by aschramm

I'm assuming you would flag it because it's not in the spirit of the rules/game, and that's more than just natural deception? Other than that I can't see any reason to flag it.

If anyone were to flag it, how would you approach the coach after that, assuming he's upset you penalized him?

I'm betting the coach would be upset because I just told him that his latest brilliant idea was illegal. He'll probably go on about how revolutionary this idea is and how it's only for the kids and other fans and officials think it's great, but in the end it's still illegal. As BMR said, actions or verbiage designed...

[daggo66]

To be honest I don't see the issue under NFHS rules. He didn't ask for a time out. His signal was a common one for when a QB wants the offensive coordinator to run through the signals again, and the snap was pretty much right away so no one was fooled.

[Jmuvol]

Maybe you should watch the video again. Louisville is preparing to blitz 3 or 4 players on the edge. As soon as the quarterback turns, the stand up and relax. If the play had gone outside, they would have been caught of guard. Under fed, this is a situation that is clearly illegal and must be called. There are a number of things that can be done in NCAA but not in Fed, this is one of them.

[TXMike]

NCAA has an "obviously unfair acts" clause which could be used here IMHO

[daggo66]

Unless the QB said something, or someone on the sidline said something, I still have nothing. He just turned and walked away roling his hands as if he was looking for a new set of signals from the sideline.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Unless the QB said something, or someone on the sidline said something, I still have nothing. He just turned and walked away roling his hands as if he was looking for a new set of signals from the sideline.

So the QB walking away from the center rolling his hands as if he is looking for a new set of signals from the sideline does NOT communicate the snap is not imminent to you?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Unless the QB said something, or someone on the sidline said something, I still have nothing. He just turned and walked away roling his hands as if he was looking for a new set of signals from the sideline.

So if that is the case, how are his actions not actions that would lead the defense to believe the snap was not imminent?