Kill the Holder!

[parepat]

I have an odd question about the holder. Under NFHS rules how is the holder determined to be down after contact by R? For example:

K is in field goal formation. Ball is snapped to the holder. R runs wide and touches the holder while in possession of the ball and his one knee on the ground. Is the play dead. If no, how do you make a player down who is already on the ground with one knee down? Rule support?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by parepat

I have an odd question about the holder. Under NFHS rules how is the holder determined to be down after contact by R? For example:

K is in field goal formation. Ball is snapped to the holder. R runs wide and touches the holder while in possession of the ball and his one knee on the ground. Is the play dead. If no, how do you make a player down who is already on the ground with one knee down? Rule support?

CANADIAN RULING.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by parepat

I have an odd question about the holder. Under NFHS rules how is the holder determined to be down after contact by R? For example:

K is in field goal formation. Ball is snapped to the holder. R runs wide and touches the holder while in possession of the ball and his one knee on the ground. Is the play dead. If no, how do you make a player down who is already on the ground with one knee down? Rule support?

Tell you what....if you ever see it happen, post and I'll look it up for you.

[Warrenkicker]

I would say that we are not playing tag, we are playing football.

Here are the exceptions from 4-2-2.
1. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position catches or recovers the snap while his knee(s) is on the ground and places the ball for a kick, or if he rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.
2. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position rises and catches or recovers an errant snap and immediately returns his knee(s) to the ground and places the ball for a kick or again rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.

I see no provision for the defense to be able to touch the holder and cause the ball to become dead. Tackle the holder so that either he is in possession of the ball away from the eventual spot of the kick or make him lose possession of the ball. The exception allows only knee(s) to be on the ground. If the defender can cause something other than the knee(s) to touch the ground, other than feet or hands, then I would say that the holder has been tackled and the ball is now dead.

However I do see the issue in that a defender could be laying on the holder but the holder is still able to keep the ball on the tee and the kicker makes the kick. It does present an interesting scenario. It would all be solved if you just tell the defender to go for the ball and not the holder.

[Scooby]

He is down if he is touched with possession of the ball and his knee on the ground. I'm not going to make the defense kill him. I my book that is a tackle.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

...The exception allows only knee(s) to be on the ground. If the defender can cause something other than the knee(s) to touch the ground, other than feet or hands, then I would say that the holder has been tackled and the ball is now dead.

I agree with that. However, you'd have to get him on the ground without running into him or roughing him per 9-4-5, right?

[Warrenkicker]

I would agree with that.

But...
9-4-5 Running into or roughing the kicker or holder. A defensive player shall neither run into the kicker nor holder, which is contact that displaces the kicker or holder without roughing; nor block, tackle or charge into the kicker of a scrimmage kick, or the place-kick holder, other than when:
a. Contact is unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made.
b. The defense touches the kick near the kicker and contact is unavoidable.
c. Contact is slight and is partially caused by movement of the kicker.
d. Contact is caused by R being blocked into the kicker or holder by K

So the player becomes the holder once he controls the ball on the ground and the ball remains live if there is another player in position to become a kicker. So based on 9-4-5 it is technically illegal to tackle the holder before the kick is made as long as the player is still in position to make the kick. I don't believe that is what the writers want the rule to say but it does.

[ljudge]

If I have a defensive end coming in off the edge and he tackles the holder prior to the kick I have a dead ball. I think if you call that roughing the holder you're asking for trouble.

I'm sure they want it this way. They can easily clean this up (as they did with the kicker) by editing the definition of a holder. They could ammend it to say a holder is a player that holds the ball of a ball that is kicked.

[Warrenkicker]

I agree. By rule if a player were to tackle the holder while in possession of the ball it is roughing the holder but I don't think anyone would want to see that call made nor should it be made. To just tackle a player in possession of a live ball should never be a foul.

You said it could be changed by changing the definition of a holder but also the roughing rule could be changed so that roughing the holder is only possible after the ball is kicked.

Or we start to get into the issue of when does this player become a holder and when does he stop. He becomes one when he controls the ball on the ground or tee but it never specifies when he stops being a holder. By definition he is not a holder anymore when the ball is kicked as he is not now controlling the ball. However this is when all of the roughing the holder fouls are committed.

After a kick is blocked when do we say that contact against the holder is no longer roughing and just an attempt to gain possession of the ball? I would say that it has some to do with R's actions as well as some to do with the holders actions. So at some point the holder must lose his protection just as the kicker and passer.

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by Scooby

He is down if he is touched with possession of the ball and his knee on the ground. I'm not going to make the defense kill him. I my book that is a tackle.

Yeah but not in the rule book and we don't play by your book.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Yeah but not in the rule book and we don't play by your book.

What determines when a holder has been tackled? Does the second knee have to touch the ground? His elbow? Another body part?

[ljudge]

You all bring up good points on what the rule should and shouldn't say and they are all logical. I'm going with my common sense and football sense here (right or wrong) of what I believe they really mean. And, I don't mean to imply you all don't have these "senses" I'm just saying what I believe is common sense and football sense in my mind.

That is, if the holder is touched while holding the ball for a kick the ball would remain live. I suppose if a player walked up and and touched a holder (as they do in the NFL when a player falls on his own) then I may be inclined to blow the whistle. If he is tackled while in possession of the ball it becomes dead.

I realize not everyone may agree but if the fed starts writing what they MEAN instead of leaving us GUESSING what they mean, then we'll get more consistent in calling (and enforcing) these types of situations.

[Warrenkicker]

I agree with your statement of common sense as I wouldn't have been sure how to rule on it prior to thinking about this a little. However common sense also tells the defense to go after the ball and not the holder. If a defender goes after the ball and hits it and the holder before the ball is kicked during a field goal then is the ball dead or now is it a fumble?

The exception for the holder allows him to have a knee or knees on the ground while in possession of the ball. A defender touching the holder does not change the status of this exception. I say that the defender needs to do more than just touch the holder. He needs to think about what he is doing and go get the ball. Again we aren't playing tag here, or NFL rules, there is no provision for a player to be touched down.

By the way, any contact against the holder while he is holding the ball is extremely likely to cause a fumble.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by golfnref

I want to be the agent for the kid who can get to the holder, who is holding the ball for a place kick, with out encroaching.

Given variations in execution of the snap & hold, it frequently would be possible to do that, were it not for the impulse of holders getting control of the ball that late to either get up & run with the ball, or to fall on it to avoid a fumble, and also if not for the fact that the defender would probably go for the ball rather than its holder.

Robert