Kill the Punter

[parepat]

What do you think?

K lines up in punt formation. K1 (the punter) accepts the snap and punts the ball. After he punts his leg returns to the ground and takes a couple steps downfield while the ball is still in the air heading to R's receiver. R1 is lined up as a defensive end. He charges to try and block the punt. Knowing that he will not get to the punt he lays off and runs behind the punter. He then circles around and blocks the punter in the front and above the waist. The punter never saw him coming and is flattened. The block occurs approx 8 yards behind the LOS at K's 20.

Questions
1. Is there a foul on this play?
2. If yes, what is the foul? Why?
3. If yes, what is the enforcement?
4. If no, why?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by parepat

Questions
1. Is there a foul on this play?
2. If yes, what is the foul? Why?
3. If yes, what is the enforcement?
4. If no, why?

My answer is it depends.

Where was the ball when all this was taking place?

If the punter was completely out of the play, I would say you could easily have a foul. If you have a foul then it is a personal foul and it would be 15 yards from the end of the run or a spot foul behind the end of the run (which ever hurts the most).

There could be an argument that this was not a foul if you feel the punter was a potential blocker and that would be based on where the ball was at the time of the block.

The bottom line is you cannot just hit someone that is completely out of the play. It was a few years ago, but this was a POE at one time for hitting players not directly involved in the play.

Peace

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by parepat

What do you think?

K lines up in punt formation. K1 (the punter) accepts the snap and punts the ball. After he punts his leg returns to the ground and takes a couple steps downfield while the ball is still in the air heading to R's receiver. R1 is lined up as a defensive end. He charges to try and block the punt. Knowing that he will not get to the punt he lays off and runs behind the punter. He then circles around and blocks the punter in the front and above the waist. The punter never saw him coming and is flattened. The block occurs approx 8 yards behind the LOS at K's 20.

Questions

1. Is there a foul on this play?

1. Have to see the play, but as you describe it I would lean yes.

2. If yes, what is the foul? Why?

2. Personal Foul, charging into an opponent obviously out of the play (Rule 9 somewhere)

3. If yes, what is the enforcement?

3. Depends. If before the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from previous spot and either replay 4th down or award new series to K. If after the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from spot of the foul or end of the run depending if run ends beyond or behind spot of foul.

[MJT]

HTBT, but I am thinking no foul cuz R is returning the ball back towards the punter who is a defensive player now, and is the last line of defense for saving a TD on the return. You said he circled around and hit him from the front and above the waist so the kicker should have been able to see him. It wasn't even a side hit, which would be more suspect to a PF.

BUT like I said you'd HTBT to know all the circumstances of how it went down.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by parepat

K lines up in punt formation. K1 (the punter) accepts the snap and punts the ball. After he punts his leg returns to the ground and he takes a couple steps downfield while the ball is still in the air heading to R's receiver. R1 is lined up as a defensive end. He charges to try and block the punt. Knowing that he will not get to the punt he lays off and runs behind the punter. He then circles around and blocks the punter in the front and above the waist. The punter never saw him coming and is flattened. The block occurs approx 8 yards behind the LOS at K's 20.

Questions

1. Is there a foul on this play?
2. If yes, what is the foul? Why?
3. If yes, what is the enforcement?
4. If no, why?

CANADIAN RULING:

1. Yes.
2. Illegal Inteference on the Punter because either:
   1. the ball hadn't yet been touched by R or
   2. the punter reached the LS
3. 10 yards from Point of Possession.
4. DNA

[parepat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My answer is it depends.

Where was the ball when all this was taking place?

As stated the ball was in the air heading to the K receiver/returner.

[parepat]

Would your opinions change if this same situation did not include the punter, but a player in the wall of the punt formation?

How do you explain to a coach that this player was out of the play, when he is IN FRONT of the play and the last defender on a return?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by parepat

How do you explain to a coach that this player was out of the play, when he is IN FRONT of the play and the last defender on a return?

That's right. The Canadian rule is a bit of a holdover from the time that a scrimmage kick could be considered an attacking move, with possession possibly retained, but otherwise I see no reason the kicker should be thought to be specially protected once he has a chance to regain balance. However....

A tactic I sometimes used to see in the NFL and minor league adult football -- though I haven't noticed it in decades -- on kickoffs was for team R to send multiple blockers against the kicker-off. Obviously they didn't consider him a great tackling threat, it was just an attempt to injure or intimidate the smallest player on the field, if he was a specialist. Like the Chi. Lions (NSFL) sending a wave of 3 to blast the kicker ASAP after kicking off. I always thought the officials should make a judgement that this did not help the runback and to call UR, but they never did. Yet I don't see that any more. NCAA adopted a rule that effectively allowed the maker of a free kick to wimp out of the play, but the problem wasn't particular to the NCAA.

Robert

[Forksref]

Is the punter blind? He was hit from the front and never saw it coming? I've got no foul. I don't consider him out of the play as the ball can still be returned. And, he is no longer a kicker when the contact happened.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Is the punter blind? He was hit from the front and never saw it coming? I've got no foul. I don't consider him out of the play as the ball can still be returned. And, he is no longer a kicker when the contact happened.

You really need to see this one but from the original post the ball was in the air when the contact was made, therefore, the punter was not involved in the play. Sounds as if the R defender was chipping which I would consider unnecessary roughness, a post scrimmage kick foul.

I try to use preventative officiating especially on punts like this by yelling out the simple phrase "It's Gone." It lets the players know you are there and the ball is out of the area. If I see something like described in this post there is no doubt it is a foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by parepat

Would your opinions change if this same situation did not include the punter, but a player in the wall of the punt formation?

How do you explain to a coach that this player was out of the play, when he is IN FRONT of the play and the last defender on a return?

A lot of things would factor. If the ball is still in the air, that is not a lot of time for most players to participate in the play if they are just standing. Most punts are not going to be more than 3 or 4 seconds. I would want to punter to participate and that is rather hard if the ball is in the air. Even if the ball hit the ground or was caught, I would not allow a player just to hit someone that was not actively running toward the play or trying to participate. As someone said you would really HTBT. And the kind of contact would also be a factor as well.

I know that this is likely going to answer your question, but you must understand that experience sometimes shapes how we view these things.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

That's right. The Canadian rule is a bit of a holdover from the time that a scrimmage kick could be considered an attacking move, with possession possibly retained, but otherwise I see no reason the kicker should be thought to be specially protected once he has a chance to regain balance. However....

A tactic I sometimes used to see in the NFL and minor league adult football -- though I haven't noticed it in decades -- on kickoffs was for team R to send multiple blockers against the kicker-off. Obviously they didn't consider him a great tackling threat, it was just an attempt to injure or intimidate the smallest player on the field, if he was a specialist. Like the Chi. Lions (NSFL) sending a wave of 3 to blast the kicker ASAP after kicking off. I always thought the officials should make a judgement that this did not help the runback and to call UR, but they never did. Yet I don't see that any more. NCAA adopted a rule that effectively allowed the maker of a free kick to wimp out of the play, but the problem wasn't particular to the NCAA.

Robert

The Cdn rule is in place to protect these specialized players. On a KO, the R specifically has the kicker.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Is the punter blind? He was hit from the front and never saw it coming? I've got no foul. I don't consider him out of the play as the ball can still be returned. And, he is no longer a kicker when the contact happened.

The way I'm reading this, he's not blind, but looking up at his handiwork, and not participating in the play. There was a POE in both FED and NCAA in the past 2-3 years that this player should not be forcibly blocked until he starts participating in the play.

[Mike L]

I think you have to look at the entire situation. It's not clear how far away the kick was at the time of contact. Was it short? If the ball is only 20 yards or so away, I think you could reasonably assume the punter could easily participate near term in the play and can be blocked. If he boomed it 50 yards up field, I would think he is not yet in any position to participate near term and you just might have a penalty.
Let's change the situation a little. If the QB throws a long pass (40 yds) that gets intercepted, are you going to allow a B lineman to just plaster him like this while well away from the play? The QB can easily be considered the "last line of defense". Are you going to treat a kicker different from a QB?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The way I'm reading this, he's not blind, but looking up at his handiwork, and not participating in the play. There was a POE in both FED and NCAA in the past 2-3 years that this player should not be forcibly blocked until he starts participating in the play.

But the situation was:

After he punts his leg returns to the ground and takes a couple steps downfield

He's covering the kick. Why should team R have to wait for some later time when he's a more difficult target to block him?

IMO if the player wants to be protected from contact in such a situation, he should have to sit or kneel.

Robert