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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 10, 2007, 04:51pm
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Kill the Holder!

I have an odd question about the holder. Under NFHS rules how is the holder determined to be down after contact by R? For example:

K is in field goal formation. Ball is snapped to the holder. R runs wide and touches the holder while in possession of the ball and his one knee on the ground. Is the play dead. If no, how do you make a player down who is already on the ground with one knee down? Rule support?
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Old Mon Dec 10, 2007, 05:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parepat
I have an odd question about the holder. Under NFHS rules how is the holder determined to be down after contact by R? For example:

K is in field goal formation. Ball is snapped to the holder. R runs wide and touches the holder while in possession of the ball and his one knee on the ground. Is the play dead. If no, how do you make a player down who is already on the ground with one knee down? Rule support?
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Old Mon Dec 10, 2007, 11:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parepat
I have an odd question about the holder. Under NFHS rules how is the holder determined to be down after contact by R? For example:

K is in field goal formation. Ball is snapped to the holder. R runs wide and touches the holder while in possession of the ball and his one knee on the ground. Is the play dead. If no, how do you make a player down who is already on the ground with one knee down? Rule support?
Tell you what....if you ever see it happen, post and I'll look it up for you.
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2007, 08:44am
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I would say that we are not playing tag, we are playing football.

Here are the exceptions from 4-2-2.
1. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position catches or recovers the snap while his knee(s) is on the ground and places the ball for a kick, or if he rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.
2. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position rises and catches or recovers an errant snap and immediately returns his knee(s) to the ground and places the ball for a kick or again rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.

I see no provision for the defense to be able to touch the holder and cause the ball to become dead. Tackle the holder so that either he is in possession of the ball away from the eventual spot of the kick or make him lose possession of the ball. The exception allows only knee(s) to be on the ground. If the defender can cause something other than the knee(s) to touch the ground, other than feet or hands, then I would say that the holder has been tackled and the ball is now dead.

However I do see the issue in that a defender could be laying on the holder but the holder is still able to keep the ball on the tee and the kicker makes the kick. It does present an interesting scenario. It would all be solved if you just tell the defender to go for the ball and not the holder.
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2007, 09:22am
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He is down if he is touched with possession of the ball and his knee on the ground. I'm not going to make the defense kill him. I my book that is a tackle.
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Old Wed Dec 12, 2007, 01:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby
He is down if he is touched with possession of the ball and his knee on the ground. I'm not going to make the defense kill him. I my book that is a tackle.
Yeah but not in the rule book and we don't play by your book.
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Old Wed Dec 12, 2007, 02:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.
Yeah but not in the rule book and we don't play by your book.
What determines when a holder has been tackled? Does the second knee have to touch the ground? His elbow? Another body part?
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2007, 09:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrenkicker
...The exception allows only knee(s) to be on the ground. If the defender can cause something other than the knee(s) to touch the ground, other than feet or hands, then I would say that the holder has been tackled and the ball is now dead.
I agree with that. However, you'd have to get him on the ground without running into him or roughing him per 9-4-5, right?
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2007, 12:46pm
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I would agree with that.

But...
9-4-5 Running into or roughing the kicker or holder. A defensive player shall neither run into the kicker nor holder, which is contact that displaces the kicker or holder without roughing; nor block, tackle or charge into the kicker of a scrimmage kick, or the place-kick holder, other than when:
a. Contact is unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made.
b. The defense touches the kick near the kicker and contact is unavoidable.
c. Contact is slight and is partially caused by movement of the kicker.
d. Contact is caused by R being blocked into the kicker or holder by K

So the player becomes the holder once he controls the ball on the ground and the ball remains live if there is another player in position to become a kicker. So based on 9-4-5 it is technically illegal to tackle the holder before the kick is made as long as the player is still in position to make the kick. I don't believe that is what the writers want the rule to say but it does.
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Old Wed Dec 12, 2007, 11:34am
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Reading into it perhaps???

If I have a defensive end coming in off the edge and he tackles the holder prior to the kick I have a dead ball. I think if you call that roughing the holder you're asking for trouble.

I'm sure they want it this way. They can easily clean this up (as they did with the kicker) by editing the definition of a holder. They could ammend it to say a holder is a player that holds the ball of a ball that is kicked.
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