Offensive Pass Interference on 4th Down

[Simbio]

His statement was that of the football fundamental "No penalty causes loss of ball."

[Welpe]

Interesting argument but technically, I don't think it is the foul that directly caused the ball the be lost. The foul only specifies that the offense loses a down, so A lost the football because they turned it over on downs, not because they committed a penalty.

I think what the fundamental is saying is that no foul can directly award possesion of the football to the other team but I could be wrong.

[bucblue]

The fundamental:I - 7 "No foul causes loss of the ball." Also stated in definitions under Section 16 - Fouls and Penalties - Art 3: "No foul causes loss of the ball." What they do lose is the 15 yards, and the right to replay the down. Since it was fourth down and they didn't make the line to gain, they turn the ball over on downs.

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Interesting argument but technically, I don't think it is the foul that directly caused the ball the be lost. The foul only specifies that the offense loses a down, so A lost the football because they turned it over on downs, not because they committed a penalty.

I think what the fundamental is saying is that no foul can directly award possesion of the football to the other team but I could be wrong.

This is correct and how it is interpretted.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Interesting argument but technically, I don't think it is the foul that directly caused the ball the be lost. The foul only specifies that the offense loses a down, so A lost the football because they turned it over on downs, not because they committed a penalty.

I think what the fundamental is saying is that no foul can directly award possesion of the football to the other team but I could be wrong.

Very well said! You are correct in your thinking.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by Simbio

His statement was that of the football fundamental "No penalty causes loss of ball."

"Loss of down" only means that A to loses the right to replay the down. They still need to make the line to gain after the penalty is administered. In your scenario, they did not make the line to gain after enforcement of the penalty, so A loses the ball on downs. It is not the foul itself that causes the turnover.

Here's a similar scenario that involves a penalty and LOD...

4th & 5 @ A30. A5 Runs for 10 yards and throws and Illegal Forward Pass @ 40.

After the enforcement of the penalty, A still makes the line to gain. It is 1st & 10 for A @ A35, not 2nd & 10. A doesn't lose an actual down in the series.

[Simbio]

Thank you everyone for responding. You all reinforced our correct call on the field.

Simbio

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by refbuz

"Loss of down" only means that A to loses the right to replay the down. They still need to make the line to gain after the penalty is administered. In your scenario, they did not make the line to gain after enforcement of the penalty, so A loses the ball on downs. It is not the foul itself that causes the turnover.

Here's a similar scenario that involves a penalty and LOD...

4th & 5 @ A30. A5 Runs for 10 yards and throws and Illegal Forward Pass @ 40.

After the enforcement of the penalty, A still makes the line to gain. It is 1st & 10 for A @ A35, not 2nd & 10. A doesn't lose an actual down in the series.

This is a very good example showing how the LOD works.

So..... LOD isn't really LOD; it is LORTRTD?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Simbio

His statement was that of the football fundamental "No penalty causes loss of ball."

They probably should delete that statement because it's too facile.

What about illegal touch by K of their free kick in the neutral zone? K was last to possess the ball before the touching, and the down may even have ended with a K player in possession of the ball. The penalty causes loss of ball by any simple reading of those words.

Robert

[Welpe]

Robert is first touching considered a penalty though?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Robert is first touching considered a penalty though?

No, good point, it's a choice without being considered a penalty, and it doesn't offset a foul by the other team. Like incomplete pass.

Probably that statement (i.e. not a particular rules provision, but the "fundamental") was put in because there were times when there were loss-of-ball penalties. The last of those in USAn ball I know of was eliminated in 1970 (give or take a year) by NCAA when fouls during certain loose balls had the loss of ball provision removed from the penalty. Likewise there was a statement about incomplete forward passes not offsetting a foul by the other team because at certain times there were penalties for incomplete (and not necessarily intentionally so) forward passes. (There were a couple of years in the 1940s in NCAA where a 2nd incomplete pass in a series of downs was penalized by loss of down & 10 yards from the previous spot.)

Robert