Int. grounding from shotgun snap

[buckrog64]

In a freshman game tonight, A was lined up in shotgun. The QB took the snap from about 3 or 4 yards from the center and threw the ball forward into the ground. Refs let it go. Two plays later, did the same thing.

Did I miss the meeting where this rule was changed? I thought in order to spike the ball, it had to be a hand to hand snap.

[MRH]

You are correct, in order to legally spike the ball the snap must be hand to hand.

This should have been called an illegal forward pass. 5 yard penalty from the spot of the foul and loss of down.

[LeRoy]

Rule 2 - D Directly from the rule book

It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap.

[Wesels]

How can you call an illegal forward pass if the QB is in a shot gun formation and presumably there is a RB with in 2 yards of him throwing the ball down to the ground? If I'm wearing the WH and this happens in a game I'm going to rule for an incomplete pass set the ball up and blow it ready for play

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by buckrog64

In a freshman game tonight, A was lined up in shotgun. The QB took the snap from about 3 or 4 yards from the center and threw the ball forward into the ground.

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal. Deliberate grounding has two musts:

1. avoid a loss of yardage
2. no eligible receiver in the area

[BoBo]

Originally Posted by Wesels

How can you call an illegal forward pass if the QB is in a shot gun formation and presumably there is a RB with in 2 yards of him throwing the ball down to the ground? If I'm wearing the WH and this happens in a game I'm going to rule for an incomplete pass set the ball up and blow it ready for play

I know you cant get into the mind of the qb but from the play explained you can pretty much tell the intent of the play.

Just because there is a receiver in the area does not mean you can't have intentional grounding or illegal forward pass.

If the player is trying to conserve time or avoid a big loss you may have to judge his intentions.

Yes I will give the player the benefit of the doubt but will take a good look at it before i decide.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Wesels

How can you call an illegal forward pass if the QB is in a shot gun formation and presumably there is a RB with in 2 yards of him throwing the ball down to the ground? If I'm wearing the WH and this happens in a game I'm going to rule for an incomplete pass set the ball up and blow it ready for play

I can call an illegal forward pass because he obviously is not throwing it to an eligible receiver.

I have never seen a QB throw this clock-stopping pass anywhere but directly to the ground. The only difference between this pass and the legal pass to stop the clock is the position of the QB. Both passes are thrown to the ground, not near an eligbile receiver. I've never seen a shotgun formation where there was a back on the ground at the feet of the QB waiting for the pass.

As a WH, you do not have the option of ignoring the rule and the intent of the rule.

This is an illegal forward pass that will carry a 5-yard penalty and loss of down from the spot of the foul.

[raider]

Actually, this is intentional grounding, not illegal forward pass. The pass is behind the LOS, so it is legal. (7-5-1 defines this) This actually falls under 7-5-2-d which, if you look at the penalty summary at the end of the section, clearly calls it intentional grounding.

[Wesels]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I can call an illegal forward pass because he obviously is not throwing it to an eligible receiver.

I have never seen a QB throw this clock-stopping pass anywhere but directly to the ground. The only difference between this pass and the legal pass to stop the clock is the position of the QB. Both passes are thrown to the ground, not near an eligbile receiver. I've never seen a shotgun formation where there was a back on the ground at the feet of the QB waiting for the pass.

As a WH, you do not have the option of ignoring the rule and the intent of the rule.

This is an illegal forward pass that will carry a 5-yard penalty and loss of down from the spot of the foul.

Now throw this twist into it: QB is getting rushed and sees his RB trying to block and he throws it as his RB's feet obviously avoiding the sack but you don't call that an illegal forward pass or intentional grounding. WHY???? Because you always say he had an eligible receiver in the area!!!! Same thing as being in a shotgun formation and spiking the ball, just that he is not being rushed and you're going to call illegal forward pass or intentional grounding. I see why the coaches get screwed up and yell at us the way that they do because you're not being consistant. If you don't call it when the QB is being rushed you better not call it when he is not being rushed!!!!!!

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by raider

Actually, this is intentional grounding, not illegal forward pass.

REPLY: Intentional gounding is most certainly an illegal forward pass. In the penalty section for 7-5, they distinguish intentional grounding because of its own special signal. But intentional grounding is clearly one of the illegal forward passes. Here's the rule...

"ART. 2… An illegal forward pass is a foul. The illegal forward passes are:
a. A pass after team possession has changed during the down.
b. A pass from beyond the neutral zone.
c. A pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver.
d. A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time.
e. A second or subsequent forward pass thrown during a down
EXCEPTION: It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap."

Originally Posted by raider

...The pass is behind the LOS, so it is legal. (7-5-1 defines this)

REPLY: How exactly does the fact that the ball was grounded behind the neutral zone make it legal???

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Wesels

Now throw this twist into it: QB is getting rushed and sees his RB trying to block and he throws it as his RB's feet obviously avoiding the sack but you don't call that an illegal forward pass or intentional grounding. WHY???? Because you always say he had an eligible receiver in the area!!!! Same thing as being in a shotgun formation and spiking the ball, just that he is not being rushed and you're going to call illegal forward pass or intentional grounding. I see why the coaches get screwed up and yell at us the way that they do because you're not being consistant. If you don't call it when the QB is being rushed you better not call it when he is not being rushed!!!!!!

Context matters.

It most certainly is a foul in a spiked shotgun. It certainly isn't a foul if the QB, under pressure, puts it at the feet of the RB.

As for the coaches, I couldn't possibly care less what they think.

[Wesels]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Context matters.

It most certainly is a foul in a spiked shotgun. It certainly isn't a foul if the QB, under pressure, puts it at the feet of the RB.

As for the coaches, I couldn't possibly care less what they think.

According to the rules: IT IS A FOUL IF THE QB IS UNDER DURESS AND THROWS THE BALL AWAY TO AVOID LOSS OF YARDAGE OR TO CONSERVE TIME!!!!

Under pressure and throwing at the RB's feet IS THROWING THE BALL AWAY TO AVOID LOSS OF YARDAGE!!!! AGAIN if you don't throw the flag for this cal YOU CAN NOT throw the flag for being in a shotgun formation and doing the same thing!!!!

CONSISTANCY!!!!!!!!!!!! OBVIOUSLY A FEW OF YOU DON'T HAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Wesels

Now throw this twist into it: QB is getting rushed and sees his RB trying to block and he throws it as his RB's feet obviously avoiding the sack but you don't call that an illegal forward pass or intentional grounding. WHY???? Because you always say he had an eligible receiver in the area!!!! Same thing as being in a shotgun formation and spiking the ball, just that he is not being rushed and you're going to call illegal forward pass or intentional grounding. I see why the coaches get screwed up and yell at us the way that they do because you're not being consistant. If you don't call it when the QB is being rushed you better not call it when he is not being rushed!!!!!!

Who said I'm not going to call intentional grounding if he throws it at his feet? Thou makest strange assumptions.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Wesels

According to the rules: IT IS A FOUL IF THE QB IS UNDER DURESS AND THROWS THE BALL AWAY TO AVOID LOSS OF YARDAGE OR TO CONSERVE TIME!!!!

Under pressure and throwing at the RB's feet IS THROWING THE BALL AWAY TO AVOID LOSS OF YARDAGE!!!! AGAIN if you don't throw the flag for this cal YOU CAN NOT throw the flag for being in a shotgun formation and doing the same thing!!!!

CONSISTANCY!!!!!!!!!!!! OBVIOUSLY A FEW OF YOU DON'T HAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

Excuse me while I cry cause you yelled at me. Boo hoo. Oh, I can do whatever I like, too.

And the word is consistency. With an "e."

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I have never seen a QB throw this clock-stopping pass anywhere but directly to the ground.

That's only since they legalized the spike. Before that, you'd've seen them throw it high over a sideline receiver's head.