Defense Pull & Shot hold

[Buckeyes]

3rd down & 10 from the 50 yard line, at the snap defesive tackle pulls guard to make hole for LB as QB goes back 2 pass. Lb misses QB, then QB scambles for 6 yard gain. What is the enforcement if A accepts the penalty? Would this be a loose ball penalty since it happened at the snap??

[Jim D]

It would be very hard, if not impossible, for a foul to occur during the snap since the snap is anywhere from instantaneous for a QB under center or 1 second or so for a shotgun formation. By the time one lineman could get hold of an opponent, the snap is over.

This is a running play so the basic spot is the end of the run. Penalize B 10 yards for holding from the 44 which will give A 1st & 10 from B's 34/

[MJT]

Buckeyes... the only time you are going to have a foul, other than a snap infraction, during the snap is if it is a snap from a shotgun or scrimmage kick formation and it would still have to be done immediately, as even these snaps are only in the air for less than one second.

[The Ref of OZ!!!]

You have no foul anyway.....

Rule 2-3-5 says... "A Defensive player may also;
b. Push, pull or ward off an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner......"

You are left with the judgement..... was the defensive player intentionally moving the lineman to open the hole for the LB, or was he simply "pulling an opponent" to get past him and to the QB??

JimO.

[oHIolj]

.............defensive tackle pulls guard to make hole for LB............

That says it right there.. It dosent say "defensive tackle pulls guard to get to the runner........"

Thats a defensive hold..

[oHIolj]

Try this defensive hold play.....Federation rules..

3rd down and 8 from B's 10 yard line.

Quarterback A12 takes the snap and drops back to pass.. While QB12 is dropping back, B55 grabs and tackles Wide Receiver A88 in the end zone.

QB12 then has to scramble and he is sacked on B's 28 yard line.

We have a Def. Hold penalty on B55.... What is the next down and distance?????

[MJT]

Originally Posted by The Ref of OZ!!!

You have no foul anyway.....

Rule 2-3-5 says... "A Defensive player may also;
b. Push, pull or ward off an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner......"

You are left with the judgement..... was the defensive player intentionally moving the lineman to open the hole for the LB, or was he simply "pulling an opponent" to get past him and to the QB??

JimO.

The pull and shoot is a techniqued taught by some coaches. You know it when you see it cuz one defensive player will pull and another teammate shoots that gap. When you see that, you know you have a pull and shoot and you have a foul.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Buckeyes

3rd down & 10 from the 50 yard line, at the snap defesive tackle pulls guard to make hole for LB as QB goes back 2 pass. Lb misses QB, then QB scambles for 6 yard gain. What is the enforcement if A accepts the penalty? Would this be a loose ball penalty since it happened at the snap??

CANADIAN RULING:

All holding is 10 yards, and in this case, applied from the PLS.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by oHIolj

Try this defensive hold play.....Federation rules..

3rd down and 8 from B's 10 yard line.

Quarterback A12 takes the snap and drops back to pass.. While QB12 is dropping back, B55 grabs and tackles Wide Receiver A88 in the end zone.

QB12 then has to scramble and he is sacked on B's 28 yard line.

We have a Def. Hold penalty on B55.... What is the next down and distance?????

REPLY: For Federation, the first thing you need to ask is "What type of play was in progress when the foul occurred?" Once you get the answer to that the question, the correct enforcement should jump out at you. Unfortunately, it won't necessarily be an enforcement that the offense will be happy with , but...

[rdfox]

Replay 3rd down from the 18 after the ten-yard penalty from the end of the run.

[rdfox]

Interestingly enough, if the QB fumbled the ball back on the 28 and then fell on it himself, this would revert to a loose-ball play and the penalty would be assessed from the previous spot.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by rdfox

Interestingly enough, if the QB fumbled the ball back on the 28 and then fell on it himself, this would revert to a loose-ball play and the penalty would be assessed from the previous spot.

Wouldn't that be true only if the foul occurred while the ball was loose? Or does Fed now classify the entire down as a "loose ball play", the way you have pass plays & kick plays? And does it matter that he fell on it himself? Wouldn't the same enforcement be available if a player of B recovered it?

Robert

[andy1033]

All runs prior to lose ball are consider part of the loose pall play behind the LOS.