Q#1: Kicking game question

[ljudge]

Here's one we discussed locally within our chapter...it makes you think of a few rules. Probably not to much debate however but a good test queston:

K's punt from the K-45 is bouncing around at the R-15. At the R-5 yard line, K85 bats the ball back towards his own goal line to prevent it from going into the endzone. The ball hits R40, then K80 blocks R40 in the back at the R-10 to get to the loose ball.

R40 picks up the ball and runs to midfield where he fumbles. K31 recovers and runs it in for a touchdown. During K31's run, he turns around and trots backwards into the endzone, does a little dance, and spikes the ball.

[cmathews]

wow lots of stuff happening here LOL...the first of which is first touching...at the R5 I say K85's "block" in the back is legal as they are attempting to get a loose ball... K31 will get a good chewing out on the sidelines I hope as he as committed and unsportsmanlike foul. Which will be assesed from the succeeding spot. So I have R ball 1st and 10 from the 20....would have been so much easier to just let it get into the endzone LOL...

[Patton]

OK... 1st, we have first touching by K at he the R-5. This is where it might get interesting...Did K85 bat the ball into K40 or did the ball just get touched by K40. We may have a flag for the BIB, depending on how the ball was touched by K40. The rest isn't really going to matter because R will obviously take the ball at the spot of first touching, the R-5. Add the 15 yard for the USC and it will be 1st and 10 from the R20.

Back to the BIB...Is my thinking right? If K85 batted the ball into K40, it doesn't give K80 the right to pummel a guy to get to the ball does it? If K40 purposely touches it, then I agree that the BIB would be legal as long as K80 was making an attemt to get to the ball. So if the BIB was ruled illegal, R would get the option of decling the BIB and taking the ball at the R20 as stated above or making K rekick from the K20 after enforcement of the BIB and the USC. Right?? Good one ljudge!

[cmathews]

If the BIB is illegal, then that would be enforced and the USC would be enforced wouldn't it? I am of the mind however that it is a stretch to call the BIB illegal. If it is a legitimate attempt to get to the loose ball...Yes there is the question as to whether K80 can legally possess the ball, but there is no reason K80 can't legally touch the ball, so with that in mind I wouldn't call the BIB illegal. Especially considering the fact that K80 my have no idea how the ball was touched by R.

[ljudge]

As per MJT's request, I'll let a few of you think about this a few days and I'll respond with the ruling I have.

cmatthews, I agree with you. Our chapter puts out doozie of tests and we frequenty make questions up like this in program books, discussions in meetings, etc. Why you may ask? Some of our cadets have criticized tests being way to difficult. When they're this difficult (and you get them right) then you get the stuff that typically happens (correctly) on the field. In other words, a double foul coupled with a USC would be "second nature" in front of 2,000 people which is what you want.

[cmathews]

Ljudge,
I agree with you, these are the questions that keep you out of hot water, when it matters most....or they are supposed to anyway LOL

[SouthGARef]

Originally posted by ljudge
Here's one we discussed locally within our chapter...it makes you think of a few rules. Probably not to much debate however but a good test queston:

K's punt from the K-45 is bouncing around at the R-15. At the R-5 yard line, K85 bats the ball back towards his own goal line to prevent it from going into the endzone. The ball hits R40, then K80 blocks R40 in the back at the R-10 to get to the loose ball.

R40 picks up the ball and runs to midfield where he fumbles. K31 recovers and runs it in for a touchdown. During K31's run, he turns around and trots backwards into the endzone, does a little dance, and spikes the ball.

Wowsa. Since R did not foul in the play, R can always take the spot of "first touching" and take the ball at his own five. Since "first touching" is technically a foul, they could not accept the IBB with this. They could however enforce the USC. R ball at the R20.

Since the illegal block in the back occurs before the ball was recovered, it is a looseball play. Enforce 10 yards from the K45. Also enforce the dead ball USC on K31, 15 yards. So backup K 25 yards, and replay the down from the K20.

So R's options are as follows:

1) Let the play stand. If done, award K six points, and let them have the try from the 18 following the enforcement of the USC.

2) Take the first touching penalty. Decline the IBB, and enforce the USC. R ball at the R20.

3) Decline first touching, and accept the IBB. Enforce 10 yards from the PLS and 15 more from the succeeding spot. Replay down from the K 20.

[Edited by SouthGARef on Dec 1st, 2004 at 04:23 PM]

[Snake~eyes]

Good thinga bout this play is that coaches won't have any clue so if you do screw it up they won't say a damn thing!

[cmathews]

SouthGARef,
You are correct that an IBB would be enforced from the previous spot in this case...however just a scematic thing, first touching is not technically a foul. 2-16-6 it is one of the game situations that produce results similar to penalties but which are not classified as fouls.

[JasonTX]

Originally posted by ljudge
Here's one we discussed locally within our chapter...it makes you think of a few rules. Probably not to much debate however but a good test queston:

K's punt from the K-45 is bouncing around at the R-15. At the R-5 yard line, K85 bats the ball back towards his own goal line to prevent it from going into the endzone. The ball hits R40, then K80 blocks R40 in the back at the R-10 to get to the loose ball.

R40 picks up the ball and runs to midfield where he fumbles. K31 recovers and runs it in for a touchdown. During K31's run, he turns around and trots backwards into the endzone, does a little dance, and spikes the ball.

Interesting questions. I'll attempt to answer using NCAA. Since K illegally touches the ball at the R-5 a bean bag will be dropped. The ball hitting R40 is ignored as it is considered forced touching. The block in the back by K80 is illegal since they can't legally recover the ball. Another bean bag will be dropped at the spot where R40 picks up the ball to mark the end of the kick. After R40 fumbles K can then legally recover that ball. R now has some choices. Enforce both the block in the back and the unsportsmanlike at the previous spot and replay the down from the K-20, or they can decline the block in the back and elect to take the ball at the spot of the illegal touch followed by enforcement of the unsportsmanlike. R's ball 1st and 10 at the R-20. One could be technical and say that K31 committed multiple unsportsmanlike fouls and be DQ'd.

[Edited by JasonTX on Dec 1st, 2004 at 05:10 PM]

[James Neil]

Originally posted by cmathews
wow lots of stuff happening here LOL...the first of which is first touching...at the R5 I say K85's "block" in the back is legal as they are attempting to get a loose ball...

This is not a legal block. K may only block in the back if it’s to catch or recover a loose ball that he may legally touch or possess. So while the ball is loose it’s still a kick and K can’t legally touch or recover it until the kick ends.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ljudge
...does a little dance...

...make a little love, get down tonight, get down tonight.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ljudge
Here's one we discussed locally within our chapter...it makes you think of a few rules. Probably not to much debate however but a good test queston:

K's punt from the K-45 is bouncing around at the R-15. At the R-5 yard line, K85 bats the ball back towards his own goal line to prevent it from going into the endzone. The ball hits R40, then K80 blocks R40 in the back at the R-10 to get to the loose ball.

R40 picks up the ball and runs to midfield where he fumbles. K31 recovers and runs it in for a touchdown. During K31's run, he turns around and trots backwards into the endzone, does a little dance, and spikes the ball.

There is no touchback in Canadian ball, so K would not try to prevent the ball from entering the endzone, but if that play did happen in the Great White North:

Flag comes out for No Yards (by K85) at the R-5. Flag for K80 blocking from the rear. Flag for K31 objectionable conduct.

Either the No Yards or the Blocking from the Rear will be applied: both are 15 yards. R will take the No Yards because that foul guarantees them the ball. Add 10 yards for OC, and it is R 1D/10 @ R-30.

[MJT]

Originally posted by ljudge
Here's one we discussed locally within our chapter...it makes you think of a few rules. Probably not to much debate however but a good test queston:

K's punt from the K-45 is bouncing around at the R-15. At the R-5 yard line, K85 bats the ball back towards his own goal line to prevent it from going into the endzone. The ball hits R40, then K80 blocks R40 in the back at the R-10 to get to the loose ball.

R40 picks up the ball and runs to midfield where he fumbles. K31 recovers and runs it in for a touchdown. During K31's run, he turns around and trots backwards into the endzone, does a little dance, and spikes the ball.

My take is the BIB is illegal cuz in the definition of blocking it says A or B can legally "push, pull, or ward off an opponent when the ball is loose if he may legally touch or possess the ball." A BIB in my opinion does not meet this "legal block."
Therefore we have
1st touching by K at R's 5 BEANBAG DOWN
a live ball, loose ball BIB foul by K at R's 10, enforced from PS if accepted
forced touching by R40 is ignored
BEANBAG DOWN where ever R40 recovered ball as this is the EOK
BEANBAG at 50, spot of fumble
USC for going in backwards, USC for dance, USC for spike (I would probably call all of this one USC, but I think you could justify all 3 if you wanted to)

Results
Accept BIB and USC, rekick from K’s 20; if you called 3 USC’s rekick from K’s 5
Decline BIB and take ball at spot of 1st touching, enforce USC, R’s ball at R’s 20; if you called 3 USC’s then R’s ball at the 50.

Hope I got it all as I was in a hurry. Fun question!

[cowbyfan1]

I would not have a BIB as K was going for the loose ball.

I have the ball as R's ball 1st and 10 on the 20 after the USC as the others do.