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Originally posted by cmathews [/i]
Ok I guess I will go with not calling the BIB unless it is pretty violent, but I do disagree that first touching is a violation or a penalty, and I am not convinced that it is illegal. When the exact same thing happens in NCAA, it is called "illegal touching". I think this shows it is illegal, just that the enforcement is different, and a beanbag is dropped, not a flag. It is specifically listed as having results similar to a penalty, but not a foul. There is no such thing as a violation in football. If it were truly a violation or penalty, batting the ball at the 5 yard line to keep it from going into the endzone would result in some sort of enforcement other than giving R the ball at the 5 yard line. That "is" the enforcement, R can take the ball at that spot. If R were in a position to block K1 would we penalize K for pushing R out of the way to get to the kick to down it at the 5? Assuming that they pushed R in the back to get there? I wouldn't because they can legally touch that ball just as they can legally touch the ball after it has been batted.... This was a forced touching, which is ignored-this was in the early NF publication. I also believe that the note in rule 2-3-5 allowing for the defense to tackle a player pretending to be a runner, and reasonable allowance for the defense not knowing, can be applied here in the fact that the second K player may not be aware that the ball was batted into R, I see your point here, but it is their responsibility to know if there was a forced touching, the same way it is their responsibility to know a fair catch was called for even if they were being blocked as they came downfield. with that in mind I still say that the BIB is not illegal by itself, if it is a personal foul that is different as is noted in the note above LOL...anyway this has been a very good discussion, lots of rules digging while I should be reading basketball rules.... It has been a great discussion and got us in the books!
See my responses in BOLD above.
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