UNC/Boston College backcourt violation (Video)

[mutantducky]

I had a pregame with a ref buddy of mine and we talked about this exact type of play. Then of course it happened in the game and he had a "brain lapse" sounds more dignified. It was a Doh! moment for him and we corrected it, no issue with the coaches. Sometimes these just happen and the partner(s) should fix it up if it does.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by billymac

include me on your list. I don't make any claim to knowing all the rules, all of the time. I just keep on trying to learn.

We (not directed at jrutledge) should all take a lesson from john 8:7: When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

i'm probably not going to be throwing many stones. When i see guys screw up, i just think, "there but for the grace of god, go i", and then i just try to straighten them out.

aaaammmmeeeennnnnnn!!!!!!!!!

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

I had a pregame with a ref buddy of mine and we talked about this exact type of play. Then of course it happened in the game ...

I actually had something similar happen. A couple weeks ago, I had a fellow official call me up with a situation someone had called him about. The guy who called me is pretty good with the rules, but as he said when he called, when he's off the court, things fog up a little bit.

The play in question was an inbounds pass on the endline just outside the FT Lane extended. The player threw the ball and it caromed off the bottom of the backboard and onto the court. He wanted to know if that was inbounds our out. I told him it was out, that the only part of the backboard that is out was the back side of the backboard.

Fast Forward 3 days. I was out of town working a tournament, and this exact play happened. I was the administering official on the throw in, and when it happened, I had nothing. The opposing coach started yelling about it, and as I ran by the bench on the way up court, i said to him, "The bottom of the backboard in inbounds." Shortly there after I had a quick moment to explain to him that 5 of the 6 sides of the backboard are inbounds -- only the back is OOB. He asked me if I was sure. I told him that I was.

LAter in the day I ran into him in the hospitality room, and we briefly discussed it again. This time I told him of the discussion I had with a fellow official the night before I left to come to that tourney.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Include me on your list. I don't make any claim to knowing all the rules, all of the time. I just keep on trying to learn.

We (not directed at JRutledge) should all take a lesson from John 8:7: When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

I'm probably not going to be throwing many stones. When I see guys screw up, I just think, "There but for the grace of God, go I", and then I just try to straighten them out.

This is not about sin. This is about doing a job. If I was a pilot and did not follow a procedure that would violate the law, I would have people suggesting I am not doing my job properly. This was not a hard rule. This was not double Ts or a false double foul that might never happen in a game. This was a basic play that often happens in games on some level potentially and if we do not know that rule, we will get this play wrong a lot. This is the kind of play that could get an NCAA official suspended or crew suspended if they improperly called a violation based on not knowing or applying the rule. This is not high school where a guy calls something and there is no video or the level of scrutiny. Any official at that level better be afraid to make that kind of mistake as they might lose games or their job in that conference if they get something like that wrong. And I bet that this official had to explain this play to his supervisor.

Peace

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is not about sin. This is about doing a job. If I was a pilot and did not follow a procedure that would violate the law, I would have people suggesting I am not doing my job properly. This was not a hard rule. This was not double Ts or a false double foul that might never happen in a game. This was a basic play that often happens in games on some level potentially and if we do not know that rule, we will get this play wrong a lot. This is the kind of play that could get an NCAA official suspended or crew suspended if they improperly called a violation based on not knowing or applying the rule. This is not high school where a guy calls something and there is no video or the level of scrutiny. Any official at that level better be afraid to make that kind of mistake as they might lose games or their job in that conference if they get something like that wrong. And I bet that this official had to explain this play to his supervisor.

Peace

Wow, that is harsh.

So tell me again how it was that Karl Hess lasted as long as he did?

Supervisors look at a body of work, not single incidences of fault. Not to say that if this happened in the Round of 32 the official would be working in the Sweet 16; that's part of the deal in the Big Dance. But he'd probably be back next year with his same primary conference.

There is accountability for single, noteworthy faults in the form of post-season assignments (Tony Greene did NOT work the Final Four last year and we can all imagine why), but in general you're not going to get fired for one mistake.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Wow, that is harsh.

So tell me again how it was that Karl Hess lasted as long as he did?

Supervisors look at a body of work, not single incidences of fault. Not to say that if this happened in the Round of 32 the official would be working in the Sweet 16; that's part of the deal in the Big Dance. But he'd probably be back next year with his same primary conference.

There is accountability for single, noteworthy faults in the form of post-season assignments (Tony Greene did NOT work the Final Four last year and we can all imagine why), but in general you're not going to get fired for one mistake.

Three officials got suspended during a game years ago for not allowing a substitute to come in after a FT properly (made basket) when the substitute was at the table. The officials did not properly allow The officials also got fined as well.

And working the Final Four is not the equivalent of getting fired from a league. The NCAA does not hire officials until the tournament. Conferences do hire and fire whomever they wish. But since you mentioned Greene, officials often do not advance in the playoffs or even make the playoffs based on their ruling during the season.

Conferences do not announce firings publicly. Many officials do not come back the following year without anyone knowing it even happened. And yes it sometimes if for things like this or it is for other works.

Peace

[jmwking]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Wow, that is harsh.

So tell me again how it was that Karl Hess lasted as long as he did?

Supervisors look at a body of work, not single incidences of fault. Not to say that if this happened in the Round of 32 the official would be working in the Sweet 16; that's part of the deal in the Big Dance. But he'd probably be back next year with his same primary conference.

There is accountability for single, noteworthy faults in the form of post-season assignments (Tony Greene did NOT work the Final Four last year and we can all imagine why), but in general you're not going to get fired for one mistake.

Hess is technically very good. Just lacks people skills. Lots-o-people skills...

[mutantducky]

It was a bad mistake but it was corrected which is why you have partners. In the end it should be about the control of the game. The FT example is worse because that sounds like 3 refs making a mistake. Here it was corrected. These things can happen even to the best of us. It happens at the highest level (which is the WNBA of course aka Chris Paul's favorite league)
I don't see it as a big deal at all. He can learn from the mistake. If he's smart he'll say it was a brain lapse type of thing because it would look bad if he didn't know that rule.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by jmwking

Hess is technically very good. Just lacks people skills. Lots-o-people skills...

Well, there was that "permitting teams to go the wrong way" bit at Marquette a few years ago (not to mention the Rick Pitino "T" when he was shouting instructions to his own player 62 feet away...)

My point for Jrut is....if you're going to can a relatively unknown guy for kicking a backcourt rule, I think you have to can Hess for permitting teams to go the wrong way three years ago. But that didn't happen. In fact I'm guessing he worked the tournament that year, too.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

My point for Jrut is....if you're going to can a relatively unknown guy for kicking a backcourt rule, I think you have to can Hess for permitting teams to go the wrong way three years ago. But that didn't happen. In fact I'm guessing he worked the tournament that year, too.

I never made a single comment about not doing the tournament because of a bad. Again, working the tournament and working a conference are very different. If Official A for example works in the Big 10, ACC and Big East and that official kicks a rule in the Big East, I might not work the Big East Tournament. That does not mean I will not work NCAA Tournament or be recommended by another conference other than the Big East based on that situation. Actually the Big East might suspend and fine Official A and take a game or two away from that official (or the crew).

Now there is evidence of this situation. Remember the Rutgers vs. St. Johns Big East Tournament game in 2011.



Two of the officials were big time officials and one was not as well known at the time. Well they had an ending that was not good and they did not apply some rules or even. I know that all three did not work that tournament the rest of the way. I know that all 3 did not work any other post season conference that year (Two were taken off of the Big Ten Tournament for sure) and I believe only one of them worked the NCAA tournament that year.

I did not say that this guy would never work again, but if the crew allowed this play to stand, they all might have gotten suspended for at least a game. It happens often if you pay attention over the years.

Peace

Is running in blowing your whistle the right way to bring information?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Is running in blowing your whistle the right way to bring information?

Not sure there is a "right way" that everyone would agree with. I think that depends on your supervisor or the association you might belong to. I think giving information to get it right is the most important thing to do in this situation.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not sure there is a "right way" that everyone would agree with. I think that depends on your supervisor or the association you might belong to. I think giving information to get it right is the most important thing to do in this situation.

When something weird happens outside of your primary, be late, be right, and be needed. In the case of the original post situation, all three B's were checked off.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am sorry, but this should not be missed. I get the brain fart could happen, but this is a very basic rule and interpretation. This is not even the NF interpretation which creates some confusion. This rule has not been any different in the entire 20 years of my career at any level including the NCAA level. How does someone not know this at that level? It is one thing if we have a judgment, but a rule to be missed like this is unacceptable. This tells me that guys at this level potentially are not in their rulebooks or never got the rule before they got to this level. But I would be so terrified to miss a rule I read them all the time to try to understand even unusual situations. This was so basic and can happen multiple times a game, this should never be missed unless you are just "getting by" in your rules knowledge. The kid's reaction should not have influenced anything. Kids try to save the ball in the BC after a rebound, why would I care what a kid thinks the rule is?

Peace

This is going to be scary so please note the date and time. I'm 100% in agreement with JRut on this. It is an absolute embarrassment for a D1 official to misapply this rule during a game. He should be fined his game check and sent back to the D2 level.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When something weird happens outside of your primary, be late, be right, and be needed. In the case of the original post situation, all three B's were checked off.

So how exactly did the Lead know that the player at midcourt with his back to him didn't catch the ball and then drop it into the backcourt? Why is he looking there?
If I'm the Lead, I'm not comig to help with this play. The Trail is going to have to live and die with his decision.