Can Refs Help Improve Youth Play (Videos)

[ccrroo]

Originally Posted by Adam

There's a rule here that we have to consider when reffing, and you may not be aware of. Essentially, it states that any contact which does not hinder normal offensive or defensive movements is to be ruled "incidental" and not a foul. That's what Rich meant by his comment. Stronger dribblers will simply be able to play through more contact than weaker dribblers.

We don't have to spend any time watching them or gauging their relative strengths, we simply watch the results of the play.

Thanks Adam, that does help.

[ccrroo]

So I'll give it another shot of why I want vid 2 called. (and yes, I missed the obvious ones about foul trouble and foul shots - thanks guys)

I'm learning it's wrong, but that defensive player in vid 2 made contact with the dribbler as he was trying to steal the ball. Whether he got the ball or not, he made contact trying to steal the ball.

I'll probably regret saying this, but I'm pretty sure I've seen many, many examples where contact is made away from the ball with absolutely no bearing on the play and yet a foul is called. It feels inconsistent and random at best.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by ccrroo

Whether he got the ball or not, he made contact trying to steal the ball.

Right, and the result of whatever potential contact he made was as if he had never made any at all. Your ballhandler didn't bat an eyelash and continued on his merry way.

Originally Posted by ccrroo

I'll probably regret saying this, but I'm pretty sure I've seen many, many examples where contact is made away from the ball with absolutely no bearing on the play and yet a foul is called.

Define "no bearing" on the play. Keep in mind you're ONLY watching the ball. Officials are not. We're watching cutters getting chucked/rerouted/held, rebounders being pushed/displaced, post players being held/pushed. That's all away from the ball in areas you're paying no attention to because coaches and fans (especially at this level) only see the ball.

But it absolutely has major bearing on the the plays. Without examples of the plays you have in mind, that's at least some food for thought.

[ccrroo]

Originally Posted by ODog

Define "no bearing" on the play. Keep in mind you're ONLY watching the ball. Officials are not. We're watching cutters getting chucked/rerouted/held, rebounders being pushed/displaced, post players being held/pushed. That's all away from the ball in areas you're paying no attention to because coaches and fans (especially at this level) only see the ball.
.

Exactly. Refs are envisioning what might have happened if a player is held/pushed away from the ball. He might have cut to the low block for a layup or he might have just stayed put. Or his teammate may have never seen him.

I'm asking for the same imagination. It takes extra energy for the dribbler to constantly have to fight through that contact. It takes his focus away from starting the offense or seeing a wide open teammate down court. If a ref can imagine something that might be impeded, I'm asking for the same.

And that goes to my main point. If in general, less contact was allowed, the players would adjust and refs would actually have an easier job.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by ccrroo

Exactly. Refs are envisioning what might have happened if a player is held/pushed away from the ball. He might have cut to the low block for a layup or he might have just stayed put. Or his teammate may have never seen him.

I'm asking for the same imagination. It takes extra energy for the dribbler to constantly have to fight through that contact. It takes his focus away from starting the offense or seeing a wide open teammate down court. If a ref can imagine something that might be impeded, I'm asking for the same.

And that goes to my main point. If in general, less contact was allowed, the players would adjust and refs would actually have an easier job.

Rules for time and space are different for on and off ball players. Chances of play off the ball having less to do with the play and playing basketball are also greater so greater risk of leading to rough play. Not apples and apples.

[ccrroo]

If your still game, here are 2 more that confused me. Especially, in light of some of the stuff I've learned (contact not affecting the outcome type stuff -- I know poorly worded).

(I'm trying to embed this time, so I hope it works)

Video 6
Ref calls a block foul. I'm too biased and don't know the technicalities well enough to say otherwise. But in this case, the offense doesn't seem hindered. So why is the foul necessary?

http://youtu.be/CkEWlSeDq9Q



Video 7
No foul called here.
I see defender 1 sort of on top of the dribbler in a bad position but he's strong enough to dribble through, so ok (i'm learning). Then I see defender 2 cut across. And as the dribbler shoots, his elbow and leg hit defender 2 which causes an air ball. If vid 1 and 6 are blocks because the defender didn't have perfect position during contact, why is this different. The defender isn't in perfect condition during the contact.

http://youtu.be/J19VdVn35Jw

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by ccrroo

If your still game, here are 2 more that confused me. Especially, in light of some of the stuff I've learned (contact not affecting the outcome type stuff -- I know poorly worded).

(I'm trying to embed this time, so I hope it works)

Video 6
Ref calls a block foul. I'm too biased and don't know the technicalities well enough to say otherwise. But in this case, the offense doesn't seem hindered. So why is the foul necessary?

http://youtu.be/CkEWlSeDq9Q



Video 7
No foul called here.
I see defender 1 sort of on top of the dribbler in a bad position but he's strong enough to dribble through, so ok (i'm learning). Then I see defender 2 cut across. And as the dribbler shoots, his elbow and leg hit defender 2 which causes an air ball. If vid 1 and 6 are blocks because the defender didn't have perfect position during contact, why is this different. The defender isn't in perfect condition during the contact.

http://youtu.be/J19VdVn35Jw

In the top video, the defender did not establish legal guard position before contact was made. Since LGP is actually defined by rule (4-23) it gets a call. This is not a situation where we are looking at the offense being hindered to determine if the contact was legal because the rule tells us its not. Therefore, foul.

In the bottom video, from this angle I would agree with you but I also have three reasons why this wasn't called. First, the ref had a different angle and although to us it looks like the contact made disrupted the shot the official may have seen the contact as marginal or could have seen it as a pass and not a shot so the offense was not hindered. Second, the ref may be inexperienced and is still learning to judge contact on these playes. Third, maybe he just missed it -- it happens.

Its also important to remember that not all contact is the same no matter how much it looks like the same contact.

[ccrroo]

Originally Posted by Rich1

In the top video, the defender did not establish legal guard position before contact was made.

Defender 2 in the bottom video isn't required to be in legal guarding position?
It may not show on the video, but his elbow is hit by the defender and his leg is kicked out. And the ball barely gets of out his hand, as a result.

(warning- sarcasm -- if the dribbler wasn't constantly having to fight (be a strong dribbler) around defenders making contact out of legal guarding position, then maybe he would've been strong enough to fight through the incidental contact to his elbow and leg)

[Raymond]

also, you should join the local officials association. you could work the age groups other than your team. this way you would be helping out from both sides of the fence.

[deecee]

This is MS. You get what you get. I mean what if we try and explain advantage/disadvantage, or Rythm/Speed/Balance/Quickness, or even evaluating a play from start to finish.

Sometimes fouls call themselves and sometimes they don't. At your level I highly double many of the advanced officiating techniques are being applied. Most likely it's call what needs to be called, let the rest go.

You're over thinking MS basketball. The kids aren't that good for the most part. The coaches are usually at the same level or worse than the kids. The officials are 2 guys or gals wearing black shorts/pants with striped shirts and a whistle, and they are whoever the assignor could get to cover the game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I tend to think that officiating at that level is commensurate to the coaching level and playing level. the mistakes made by the officials are on par with the mistakes made by the players and the coaches

I repeat the above, and emphasize the below.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

also, you should join the local officials association. you could work the age groups other than your team. this way you would be helping out from both sides of the fence.

No conversation we have here is going to change the officiating of or your relationship with the officials doing your middle school games.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by ccrroo

Defender 2 in the bottom video isn't required to be in legal guarding position?

The defender did not make contact because he was trying to take a "guarding" position on the dribbler so we would be judging it based on incidental vs illegal. LGP becomes a factor when a defender is trying to place his body in the path of an offensive opponent. The defender here appears to be rushing over to attack the ball because the dribbler beat the first guy.

[ccrroo]

Originally Posted by Rich1

The defender did not make contact because he was trying to take a "guarding" position on the dribbler so we would be judging it based on incidental vs illegal. LGP becomes a factor when a defender is trying to place his body in the path of an offensive opponent. The defender here appears to be rushing over to attack the ball because the dribbler beat the first guy.

Dang it. I came back.
I thought the defender tried to place his body in the path.
But if attacking the ball allows for this contact (including tripping in this case). That's what we should be teaching. Attack the ball as it seems to allow for lots of contact. Especially on strong ball handlers.

Now it seems we are back to semantics. In this case, whether he tried to place his body in the path or he attacked the ball, the result was the same. The dribbler/shooter had his RSBQ affected.

And the irony is that neither defender ever touch the ball. They only touched the dribbler. In the first case, he was able to strongly dribble through. And in the second case, his strength gave out. Those are incredible rules.

More irony. The final foul count in this game was probably 25 to 10 (3 of our players fouled out). I posted 2 of our fouls. Both blocks. One of the hardest to teach and officiate. But I didn't post the other 23 because they looked like fouls to me. I posted what I thought were missed fouls by our opponents. I should go back and apply what I've learned to understand why our other 23 fouls were called.

Last irony -- we are the team trying to play defense with out feet (admittedly, a mistake and poor coaching).

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by ccrroo

So I'll give it another shot of why I want vid 2 called. (and yes, I missed the obvious ones about foul trouble and foul shots - thanks guys)

I'm learning it's wrong, but that defensive player in vid 2 made contact with the dribbler as he was trying to steal the ball. Whether he got the ball or not, he made contact trying to steal the ball.

I'll probably regret saying this, but I'm pretty sure I've seen many, many examples where contact is made away from the ball with absolutely no bearing on the play and yet a foul is called. It feels inconsistent and random at best.

Now you really are getting into the difference between knowing the rules as an official and a coach.

PLayer with the ball has no expectation of time and space must expect to be guarded. Player off the ball has an expectation of time and space.

Defender trying to get the steal is making a basketball play. Now official has to judge contact to see if ball carrier is disadvantaged. Defender hitting the off ball player has no reason to be doing so, thus much easier for official to say contact is impeding movement, leading to rough play etc.

[ODog]

Video 6: Block. The offense most certainly is hindered. This player has every intention of driving to the hoop and shooting until a defender enters his path at the last second without establishing legal guarding position (2 feet down and facing the opponent). The result? A pass out to the deep wing instead of a potential layup. Block all day.

Video 7: Nothing. Defender 1 is borderline, but has no impact on your player getting exactly where he wants to get exactly when he wants to get there. But when he does, he's surprised by defender 2 running through to the endline and he loses the ball out of bounds. Elbow/leg contact (if any) is incidental. The result is a disappointing finish to an ill-advised drive into obvious pressure.

You're not seeing this through an even remotely objective lens, and I applaud that passion. I especially, however, applaud your video work. These are AWESOME clips of youth games, and I mean that sincerely. You have skills!