Can Refs Help Improve Youth Play (Videos)

[ccrroo]

I've become very frustrated with basketball officiating at the youth level. Whether we win or lose (we've won a lot more than we've lost), my first thought is how bad the officiating was. I'm going to post some videos with the hopes ya'll can help me understand what the ref is thinking.

(I've never been trained to officiate and recognize it's a hard and thankless job.)

First video. It has to be a charge/block right? (LOL).
So my thoughts. We're trying to teach 7th graders how to take a charge. They have a right to space especially with an out of control offense that lowers their shoulder. So why wouldn't a ref give the benefit of the doubt to this player:
(note: the charge/block is hard to call and even harder to execute -- I've just about given up trying to teach it -- I think that's sad)

video -1
http://youtu.be/c-4j7GOS-Pc



So maybe it was block. But why wouldn't this reach be called in video 2. In video 1 the defender is trying to play nice fundamental defense. In this video 2, he just plainly reaches into the offenses body. No foul called.

video-2
http://youtu.be/s_NVl8XBYKI



In my naive world, at the 7th grade level, as a ref --- I think I would be encouraging the defense in video 1 vs the defense in video 2. Yet it's not called that way. The sloppy way is rewarded.

[APG]

Middle school ball is often the training grounds for new officials...just like it's the training grounds for many of the players. As such, you're not going to get the cream of the crop.

As to your clips, specifically the 2nd clip, I don't necessarily see a foul. Reaching in isn't a foul in of itself...if it was, then you could never steal the ball from the dribbler. Save for the four absolutes on a ball handler, the mere fact that there is contact on the dribbler isn't a foul.

[ccrroo]

Thanks - I'm already learning something new. What are the 4 absolutes on a ball dribbler? It would help if I knew that.

Honestly, I'm absolutely amazed that a defender can smack a dribbler across the chest and it not be a foul (video 2). We haven't taught that but maybe we certainly will start. No more trying to get into good position.

What I'm reading is that in video 1 the offense has all the rights to his space. And in video 2, the offense doesn't have rights to his space.

I definitely have to send my parents to this thread because they would all say that video 2 is a foul. And if it's not, we are teaching our kids the wrong way and they are giving their kids the wrong feedback.

I see these same officials doing HS games.

No comment on video 1? Or too close to speculate and let it stand as called?

[APG]

Originally Posted by ccrroo

Thanks - I'm already learning something new. What are the 4 absolutes on a ball dribbler? It would help if I knew that.

Honestly, I'm absolutely amazed that a defender can smack a dribbler across the chest and it not be a foul (video 2). We haven't taught that but maybe we certainly will start. No more trying to get into good position.

What I'm reading is that in video 1 the offense has all the rights to his space. And in video 2, the offense doesn't have rights to his space.

I definitely have to send my parents to this thread because they would all say that video 2 is a foul. And if it's not, we are teaching our kids the wrong way and they are giving their kids the wrong feedback.

I see these same officials doing HS games.

No comment on video 1? Or too close to speculate and let it stand as called?

Smack is a bit dramatic...I've seen this type of play before and seen a dribbler disregard it as if the defender wasn't there. Guess my main point is that that type of play isn't an automatic foul. I still wouldn't teach your players to do what this defender did cause 1.) he's in poor position if he doesn't come up with a steal...and 2.) he puts himself at a greater chance of picking up a foul.

As to the four absolutes, strictly speaking, this type of contact is illegal on the ballhandler/dribbler:

1.) Two hands on the ball handler
2.) An extended forearm
3.) Repeating (more than once) touching with the same hand or either hand
3.) A stayed (continuous) touch on the ball handler

[Adam]

Video 1: The official has a much better angle than the camera. There are two options from what I can see.

1. The defender leaned into the path as the dribbler was about to go around him.
2. The official holds to the myth that a player must be "set" to draw a charge.

I'd say the odds of both are about 50/50 given the video I'm watching.

Video 2.
The dribbler is barely phased by this, so it's generally a good no-call. From the camera angle, I can't even tell if contact is made. If there's no contact, there's no foul. If there's contact, but the dribbler isn't affected, there's no foul.

[Adam]

Video 3. Ref just missed it. It happens.

Video 4. I see what the ref saw. First defender is not likely getting a foul called.

Video 5. First defender: I see a lot of ball, hardly any contact between players. The contact that starts to trip the ball handler is made on the feet, after the defender has gained his position. That's rarely a foul on a defender. Second defender, there's some contact, but it looks like it was simply missed. There's not a lot of affect on your player with this second defender (although at that level, it's something I'd call if I see it), so th official may have passed since your player kept the ball.

[Adam]

I'd like to ask the OP a question.

Why would you want a foul called in that second video? Was your player at all disadvantaged by the contact (assuming there was any contact at all)? I would think, as a coach, you'd much rather have a defender out of position while your dribbler keeps going past him.

[JRutledge]

I officiate for me. I leave my house because I like where I am going and what I am working. I am not here to teach anyone anything but other officials, if they are receptive to my knowledge and experience. It is the coach's job to teach kids how to play and to train kids. My job is to call the game properly and use proper judgment. Middle school games are hard to work because the talent and fluidity of the players is not yet developed.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ccrroo

...
Honestly, I'm absolutely amazed that a defender can smack a dribbler across the chest and it not be a foul (video 2)...

If I heard this extreme hyperbole from a coach after that play, I would cease answering any further questions from that coach the rest of the game, because he could no longer be trusted to have an honest conversation.

[Rich1]

Contact is not a foul unless it is judged to e illegal. In short, contact is illegal and should be dalled a foul if it "hinders normal defensive and offensive movements". The refs may see the exact same contact tat you see but view it differently. If your team is "playing through contact" refs may choose to let it go.

For reference, the following places in the rule book may help: 4-7, 4-18, 4-19, 4-23, 4-24, 4-26, 4-27, 4-37, 4-40, 4-45, and 10-6.

Refs are required to make quick judgements involving contact all game long and depending on your angle, focus, perspective, experience, bias, and other factors you may disagree. Complaining from coaches, players, parents isn't going to change what we call. The best thing you can do as a coach is teach your players to adjust to how the crew is calling the game.

[Rich1]

Refs get paid to officiate rules, coaches get paid to teach the game. This is my mantra for sanctioned school games and I say this as someone who is both a ref and a coach. I don't want you telling my players what to do or how to adjust -- that's on me.

However, for rec leagues where you are dealing with parent coaches and younger kids it is ok to help kids understand what they are doing wrong but I still avoid too much coaching.

I also feel excessive ref coaching slows down the game and can make you appear biased if you spend more time "helping" one team over the other. It really isn't why we're there.

[ccrroo]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If I heard this extreme hyperbole from a coach after that play, I would cease answering any further questions from that coach the rest of the game, because he could no longer be trusted to have an honest conversation.

What part is hyperbole? Ok, maybe "absolutely amazed" is. But the defender did hit the dribblers chest. Now the offense has to change their game for the rest of the game to be on guard for this. It didn't affect that play, but it affects all others.

[Rich1]

I had a coach this week yell to his players "look out, these guys are calling EVERYTHING." It seems that parents/coaches are constantly complaining that we aren't calling enough fouls and then complain that we call to many.

As a ref I don't care who wins, who fouls out, what the foul count is, etc. I only care about enforcing the rules using my judgement and experience. I always "call it both ways", I know how to "count to three", and "yes coach, that really was a foul".

When I was coaching basketball I got T'd up regularly for "working" the refs too hard. Now that I'm on this side of the game I realize I was out of line most of the time and wish I had a better understanding of advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, illegal contact, and the rules in general. It would have made me a better coach.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by APG

Middle school ball is often the training grounds for new officials...just like it's the training grounds for many of the players. As such, you're not going to get the cream of the crop.

....

And most definitely a training ground for coaches.

[Raymond]

And now I've seen 5 videos and all I see is a bunch of sloppy 7th grade basketball. Still haven't seen a play where I would say "OMG, he really missed that".

Coach, have any parents sent you any videos asking why you are running certain plays? Or showing how well their kid plays, but you are still not giving them enough playing time? I'm asking this seriously.