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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 12:30pm
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New here. Not an official but the son of a retired college and high school official.

Since the days of the Piston's Bad Boys the NBA has become a much more physical and much less finesse game. Over the years that style of game has worked its way down to the young kids. My question is this. The officiating has also seemed to become NBA style in the youth game. For instance the big strong kid is allowed to back down a smaller player like Shaq does, using his butt to move the smaller player out of the way and any attempt to hold his ground penalizes the smaller player. Is this what is being taught in officiating or has it just kind of evolved? Is the youth official encouraged to allow the physical play that is seen on TV? I must admit I miss the old NBA when scoring 100 wasn't an abberation and with the way the kids are playing today it doesn't look like it will change.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by eastdavis
The officiating has also seemed to become NBA style in the youth game.
Not in my games.


Quote:
For instance the big strong kid is allowed to back down a smaller player like Shaq does, using his butt to move the smaller player out of the way and any attempt to hold his ground penalizes the smaller player.
Not in my games.


Quote:
Is this what is being taught in officiating or has it just kind of evolved?
Neither.

Quote:
Is the youth official encouraged to allow the physical play that is seen on TV?
No.

I don't know where you are watching your games, but I'm sure I see more youth games than you and that's not what I see.

I'm not trying to be confrontational and I appreciate your input and participation here, but don't lump all officials into a category.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 12:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Quote:
Originally posted by eastdavis
The officiating has also seemed to become NBA style in the youth game.
Not in my games.


Quote:
For instance the big strong kid is allowed to back down a smaller player like Shaq does, using his butt to move the smaller player out of the way and any attempt to hold his ground penalizes the smaller player.
Not in my games.


Quote:
Is this what is being taught in officiating or has it just kind of evolved?
Neither.

Quote:
Is the youth official encouraged to allow the physical play that is seen on TV?
No.

I don't know where you are watching your games, but I'm sure I see more youth games than you and that's not what I see.

I'm not trying to be confrontational and I appreciate your input and participation here, but don't lump all officials into a category.
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I agree I do 6-10 youth games a week. And I don't see any of this, and when I do I put a stop to it right away. I use these rec leagues to work on my officiating, that way when I graduate from Highschool I can ref Highschool and hopefully higher then that. I ref these rec games as close to Highschool as I can for their age group.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 01:03pm
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Mark

Didn't mean to lump all officals together but I can see the way I worded it makes it look that way. Sorry about that.

Over the last couple of years that seems to be the trend in city leagues and AAU tournaments in my area.

From your response it doesn't sound like it is being taught and encouraged and I'm glad to hear that.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 02:20pm
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Hi davis and welcome to the forum. As Mark (kind of) alluded to, you're going to see a broad range of officiating talent in those youth leagues and AAU games. You'll get some officials who have been trained well and have some good experience, and you'll get some officials who are just starting out or who learned about basketball by watching the NBA on TV.

Trained, experienced officials will most likely not allow a larger player to push another player under the basket. While you may see some of this (and I see it to a small extent at games that I occasionally observe), hopefully it isn't allowed in the majority of your games. It should not be.

Again, welcome to the forum. Hope you'll stick around with more good questions.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 04:51pm
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You will also see that there are spectators who ask questions and say things about bigger stronger kids backing down smaller weaker kids like shaq does and that it is an NBA thing or that it is illegal.

What Shaq does for the most part is not illegal. He is bigger. Should we blame him or even penalize him for that? NO. If the kid never comes to a "firm up" position and instead just keeps giving way after every bump, that is his fault and as long as the defender isn't taking a hard shot to the torso to knock him back consistently it is not a foul.

Eastdavis you will find that almost all and if not all of the posters on here are on your side about the NBA and not liking the work the officials do and even the NBA in general, but I am not on that side. I have met with, watched, and observed the work that they do on and off the court(watching game film, case plays, etc.). They are the best in the world at what they do. The NBA doesn't have a style of refereeing. There is the rules and the rules only that determines the style. Refs at the NBA level know(by the rules) what contact can be deemed legal and what can't. I feel the plays like the back down you are reffering to are the calls that are not "no-called" enough. The defender is giving way ground to the offensive player and the offensive player has every right to keep banging that defender until he decides he wants to hold a position, and until then or until the offensive player does something overt my whistle will remain silent.

I personally would love to see two kids in my youth league battle in the post like that.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 05:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by refTN
What Shaq does for the most part is not illegal.
According, as you note below, to NBA rules.

Quote:
He is bigger. Should we blame him or even penalize him for that? NO.
Not unless he displaces another player.

Quote:
If the kid never comes to a "firm up" position and instead just keeps giving way after every bump, that is his fault

#1, a "firm up" position is irrelevant in HS and NCAA. Legal guarding position has no mention of firming up. It can not be applied to HS and NCAA situations, period.

#2, how exactly is a 200 pound player NOT supposed to "give way" after being pushed by a 350 pound player? That's probably an exaggeration, I don't know Shaq's weight, but the point is the same. The smaller player is not giving ground, he is being pushed off his legally obtained spot by a bigger player. That's not legal in a HS or NCAA game.

Quote:
Eastdavis you will find that almost all and if not all of the posters on here are on your side about the NBA and not liking the work the officials do and even the NBA in general, but I am not on that side. I have met with, watched, and observed the work that they do on and off the court(watching game film, case plays, etc.). They are the best in the world at what they do.

I don't think anyone on this forum has ever denigrated the job that the NBA's officials do. Nobody here has ever said that they are poor referees. They are great referees and they apply the rules as the NBA wants them applied. We all agree that they do an excellent job of doing that; where some of us differ is in whether we like NBA rules and the way the league wants them applied.

I too have been to a camp affilliated with -- wait for it -- the SEC and have met with many of the NBA refs. My first contact with an NBA ref was Zach Zarba and I have been his biggest fan since that first meeting. (In fact, he got me into that camp I mentioned.) Don't confuse some people's feelings about the game with their feelings about the officiating.

Quote:
I feel the plays like the back down you are reffering to are the calls that are not "no-called" enough. The defender is giving way ground to the offensive player and the offensive player has every right to keep banging that defender until he decides he wants to hold a position, and until then or until the offensive player does something overt my whistle will remain silent.
I think that is a very bad attitude to take into a HS or NCAA game. Seems like every single year, the NCAA and/or the FED put out POEs aimed at cutting down on that "banging". I don't think you should be "wishing" for more of it. JMO
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 06:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/B]
I think that is a very bad attitude to take into a HS or NCAA game. Seems like every single year, the NCAA and/or the FED put out POEs aimed at cutting down on that "banging". I don't think you should be "wishing" for more of it. JMO [/B][/QUOTE]It's even a worse attitude to take into a middle school game. Or any youth game- which is what this thread is about.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 06:43pm
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Well I have read the whole NFHS rule book and casebook, some of the NCAA, and almost all of the NBA. I just don't see how post play should be called different at any level.

Getting off that to ask a question to chuck or jurassic in particular or anyone else who feels like answering. What are the guidelines on what you can do in the post? As I have said hundreds of times before I am an NBA guy. I love their rules and I do know the difference between almost all NBA, college, and HS rules, but when it comes to things like post play and hand checking/forearm checking out top I don't know what the provisions on that are. In the NBA official's manual. It has set guidelines. For an example, in the post with a player's back to the defender, the defender may put a forearm and a bent elbow hand. He may not have two forearms, nor two hands. that is just to name one of the guidelines. why don't NCAA and especially HS come out with such guidelines to make it easier for all officials to be more uniform, cause I know I am going to use the NBA guidelines in the post and in hand checking and I know that I would more than likely be wrong in making these calls according to supervisors, but that could vary from supervisor to supervisor, because there are no set guidelines. I will get off my soap box now and let you guys respond.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 08:05pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by refTN
Well I have read the whole NFHS rule book and casebook, some of the NCAA, and almost all of the NBA. I just don't see how post play should be called different at any level.

Getting off that to ask a question to chuck or jurassic in particular or anyone else who feels like answering. What are the guidelines on what you can do in the post? As I have said hundreds of times before I am an NBA guy. I love their rules and I do know the difference between almost all NBA, college, and HS rules, but when it comes to things like post play and hand checking/forearm checking out top I don't know what the provisions on that are. In the NBA official's manual. It has set guidelines. For an example, in the post with a player's back to the defender, the defender may put a forearm and a bent elbow hand. He may not have two forearms, nor two hands. that is just to name one of the guidelines. why don't NCAA and especially HS come out with such guidelines to make it easier for all officials to be more uniform, cause I know I am going to use the NBA guidelines in the post and in hand checking and I know that I would more than likely be wrong in making these calls according to supervisors, but that could vary from supervisor to supervisor, because there are no set guidelines. I will get off my soap box now and let you guys respond.
NCAAW (at least) had a "two of anything in the post is a foul" interpretation for a number of years. It's been dropped in favor of a "displacement is a foul" interpretation.

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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 09:04pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by refTN
What are the guidelines on what you can do in the post?
Straight from the NFHS 2003-04 Rule Book....

POE 2C POST PLAY
1) The offense can shape up to receive a pass or to force the defense to deploy or assume a legal guarding position at the side, in front or behind the offensive post player. When the offensive player then uses the "swim stroke", pushes, pins, elbows, forearms, holds, clears with the body or just generally demonstrates rough physical movements or tactics, this a foul on the offensive player and must be called without warning.
2) The defense can assume a legal, vertical stance or position on the side, front or behind the offensive post player. When the defense undercuts(initiates lower-body non-vertical contact), slaps, pushes, holds, elbows, forearms or just generally demonstrates rough, physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the defense and must be called without warning.
3) When a player pushes a leg or knee into an opponent, it is a foul.
4) When a player dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or "backing in", it is a foul.
5) When a player uses hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul.

Most high school associations include this as part of their training. Most high school camps also teach the same principles.

No set guidelines in the rule book? That's because you don't read, know, or understand the rule book used at the level you are currently officiating. It might be a good idea one day for you to read NFHS rule 10-6-1, RefTN. And the rest of R10-6 also. You might not be so confused then. Those rules also do apply at the middle school level in TN too, don't they? I know that they certainly apply to your next level up- the high school level, when you happen to attain that. If you read the rulebook for the level that you are officiating, rather than the level that you want to officiate some day, then you'll do a much better job now- believe it or not. Good officials know the rules for the level that they're working.

As usual, feel free to ignore the advice. Hopefully, some of it might be helpful to other new officials.

I'm off my soapbox now too.


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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 10:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
NCAAW (at least) had a "two of anything in the post is a foul" interpretation for a number of years. It's been dropped in favor of a "displacement is a foul" interpretation.
Bob, just fyi - the modification this year in NCAAW: 2 of anything on a post player, in the lane area, without the ball, and their back to the basket, is legal as long as there is no displacement. Once the player has the ball and faces the basket, they have the same status as a dribbler, which means 2 of anything would still be a foul. They added a section on "armbars", and they've also loosened the rules on hand-checking so it's no longer an automatic foul if a defender touches the dribbler.

Bottom line, they still have some specific instructions on how things should be called. On one hand, it feels a little restrictive because it does take a little of the judgement out of the call (any advantage gained?). However, there is some comfort in being able to make a call that's written out in black and white. Sometimes I wish the Fed would do the same. I've heard the howler monkey cry of "That's a hand check!" far too many times whenever a defender touches a dribbler without any advantage or displacement.
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Old Mon Jan 23, 2006, 01:15am
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eastdavis,

Good question, and as you can see, we all have our opinions. I've seen a LOT of youth ball at all levels around here (Portland, Oregon) and I see some of the NBA-style of reffing in some youth leagues, especially at the AAU and "travel team" types of tourneys. Many of these refs do get their instruction from television, and do things the NBA way. Some of them do "crossover" reffing and will also work with the NFHS associations and do "school" ball. In the lower level rec leagues, generally this kind of physical play is not allowed, and when there get to be disagreements about it, the NBA style stuff gets squashed by the board of directors. Kids that want that (or parents that want that for their kids) go find another league.
Personally, I think that allowing kids under high school level to play this way does them a disservice. Once they get into high school, they won't be nearly as skilled at the kinds of finesse moves they'll need, and generally speaking, they mostly won't understand the problem and won't be able to adjust. Even at the top level of college, "backing down" an opponent is frowned on. So why let kids get away with it when they're 12? It just seems silly.
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Old Mon Jan 23, 2006, 01:21am
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Quote:
Originally posted by refTN
As I have said hundreds of times before I am an NBA guy. I love their rules
RefTN -- THe only thing I ask is that you keep putting this statement into your posts. Less experienced folks might come to this board and think you represent the NFHS position when in reality almost nothing you say should be applied to that level of ball. If you keep reminding your readers that you're NBA all the way (like how Chuck keeps a sig line that says his college interps apply to NCAA men's), then there won't be mix-ups and confusion about who's saying what.
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Old Mon Jan 23, 2006, 03:59am
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Quote:
Originally posted by RefTN
Well I have read the whole NFHS rule book and casebook, some of the NCAA, and almost all of the NBA. I just don't see how post play should be called different at any level.
Either BS or you are not be a very thorough reader. JR gave you the NFHS POE on this, the post below mentions the CURRENT NCAAW POE on it, and I've added the actual RULE BOOK text of the first part of that POE to end of this post. Happy reading!


Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
NCAAW (at least) had a "two of anything in the post is a foul" interpretation for a number of years. It's been dropped in favor of a "displacement is a foul" interpretation.
Bob, just fyi - the modification this year in NCAAW: 2 of anything on a post player, in the lane area, without the ball, and their back to the basket, is legal as long as there is no displacement. Once the player has the ball and faces the basket, they have the same status as a dribbler, which means 2 of anything would still be a foul. They added a section on "armbars", and they've also loosened the rules on hand-checking so it's no longer an automatic foul if a defender touches the dribbler.

Bottom line, they still have some specific instructions on how things should be called. On one hand, it feels a little restrictive because it does take a little of the judgement out of the call (any advantage gained?). However, there is some comfort in being able to make a call that's written out in black and white. Sometimes I wish the Fed would do the same. I've heard the howler monkey cry of "That's a hand check!" far too many times whenever a defender touches a dribbler without any advantage or displacement.
2005-06
Points of Emphasis for Women
Displacement
The following guidelines have been established to help coaches, players and officials achieve a level of play that will allow freedom of movement for all players on the court and make the game a free-flowing, exciting game to watch. Officials must enforce these guidelines to ensure that freedom of movement is allowed in the game.
1. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO POST PLAY
The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
a. A post player is defined as an offensive player with or without the ball who has her back to the basket and is either in the lane or just outside the lane. (The lane includes the foul line.) Any player on the court can be a post player as long as they have their back to the basket and are in the lane or just outside the lane.
b. Aplayer with the ball and her back to the basket is not a post player if she is not in the lane or just outside the lane. The defender may not make contact with the arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) in this situation.
c. A defensive player may place one arm-bar on the offensive post player. Extending the established arm-bar and displacing the opponent is illegal and a foul shall be called.
d. A defensive player may place one hand, with a bend in the elbow on the offensive post player. Extending the arm and locking the elbow and displacing the opponent is illegal and a foul shall be called.
e. Post players may be defended by placing one arm-bar or one hand with a bend in the elbow on the opponent to maintain position, any holding or displacement is illegal and a foul shall be called. Two hands, two arm-bars or an arm-bar and a hand used to hold or displace are illegal and a foul shall be called.
f. A defensive player pushing a leg or knee into the rear of the offensive post player shall be called for a personal foul.
g. An offensive post player may not “back-down” and displace the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
h. The offensive post player may not grab the leg or body of the defender, hook or in any way displace or hold.
i. An offensive post player becomes a ball handler (see ball handler or dribbler guidelines) when she turns and faces the basket with the ball.
j. The offensive post player with or without the ball cannot initiate contact and displace the defender who has established a legal guarding position. (see principle of verticality)
k. Players may attain a position where their bodies are touching each other but only to maintain position. Any attempt to displace an opponent from a position she has legally obtained is a personal foul.
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