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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 12:03am
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Should We Have Fixed It?

I messed up (surprise, huh?).

I was the lead and had a foul against A12 for pushing during a rebound. However, the players reacted as if the foul was on a member of Team B, and I second-guessed myself. I figured that I must have had a brain fart and A12 was the player that got fouled. But I didn't get a look at the player for Team B involved in the play, and went to a partner to see if he saw it. Turns out that he didn't know who the foul was on, but my other partner said it was on B5.

So... basically, there was a foul on A12, but I called it on B5.

I in-bound the ball and we go the other way, nothing really happens, and the ball is hit out of bounds. The partner that told me the foul was on B5 stops play and approaches me. He says that the foul was on A12... I had it right originally. He points out that we're within the time to correct an error, but I tell him that it's not a correctable error. I messed up, and we have to go with it.

The coach for Team B wants to know what the hold-up is, and I tell him that I messed up, and the foul was against A12. But I tell him it's not a correctable error, so we have to go with it. I apologize for the mistake, and the game goes on.

Thankfully Team B pulls away at the end and wins by 7, so my mistake doesn't affect the outcome. But I have to ask... did we do things right? We can't correct that error, right?

BTW, I don't know why my partner told me the foul was on B5, only to turn around not 30 seconds later and tell me I was originally right. And I learned to ignore how the players react, and just call it. Sure, sometimes how the players react can help you (like if you're not sure the foul was during a shot, and the fact the players start to lineup right away leads you to go with a shooting foul), but for the most part just do your thing.
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 01:21am
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It is too late to fix the throw in as that must happen before the throw in is completed. However you are not clear as to whether or not you changed the book. You can do that at any time.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junruh07 View Post
It is too late to fix the throw in as that must happen before the throw in is completed. However you are not clear as to whether or not you changed the book. You can do that at any time.
I agree with this. The official reported the foul on the wrong player (also the wrong team in this case) due to confusion. That caused a mistake with the subsequent throw-in which is not correctable, but as the official now has knowledge that the foul was incorrectly reported that should be fixed.
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 08:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
That caused a mistake with the subsequent throw-in which is not correctable, but as the official now has knowledge that the foul was incorrectly reported that should be fixed.
Can you site a rule that supports changing the foul? I've done what the OP did, determined at half time that I charged the foul to the player who was fouled, but my partners said that we could not change the foul in the book. That didn't feel right to me since we had definite knowledge.
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 09:14am
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We changed nothing.

And I too would like a rule reference saying we can change who the foul was on.
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 09:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesMoines View Post
2.11.10 SITUATION C:

The scorer mistakenly credits a field goal by A1 to B1 and Team B in the second quarter. The regulation game ends with the score tied. During a time-out in overtime, the scorer detects the mistake and advises the *referee.

RULING: The referee will have the mistake corrected. The overtime will continue with the corrected score. Once the ball becomes live in the overtime, the overtime will be played even though a subsequent correction of an error or *mistake changes the score. A bookkeeping mistake can be corrected at any time until the final score is approved.
I don't think that applies, as it's a scorer mistake... Not an official's mistake. We can always fix a scorer's mistake.
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:31am
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Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
I don't think that applies, as it's a scorer mistake... Not an official's mistake. We can always fix a scorer's mistake.
I'd use the precedent of the case cited by DesMoines, along with 2-3. At the very least, remove the incorrectly applied foul even if you don't feel comfortable giving it to A12 at this point.
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:43am
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You cannot change the foul from B5 to A12. There is no rules basis to do so and you are not only altering the amount of personal fouls for these two players you are altering the number of team fouls. Depending upon how much time has elapsed after the first foul that was incorrectly reported and you realize the mistake, there could have been multiple correctable error situations, awarding unmerited free throws or failing to award merited free throws, that can no longer be fixed. You are better off owning up to the mistake if and when you discover it and move on with the game.

The coach from team B can either accept the explanation that a mistake was made that cannot be corrected or he can be an ******* about the situation and earn himself a technical foul.
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:32pm
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It doesn't sound like we're going to come to a consensus about this play. Some think I should have changed who the foul was on, others say I can't.

I can't just go with 2-3, as the rule book does cover what can be corrected. The implication being that you can't change anything else.

Hopefully a few more people chime in on this.
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:49pm
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Put me in the camp of putting the foul on the correct player. I would think this is a 2-3 application...I don't think I could eat putting a foul on the wrong player...much less the WRONG TEAM.

If my assignor says I'm wrong (and feel like most wouldn't), then it's one I'd be willing to "bite."
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 09:38pm
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Change it!

I am with those who say its within the "spirit" of the law to change the foul to the correct player on the correct team but it is not allwable to change anything else at that point. While there is nothing specific in the "letter" of the law that says you can (or can't) make this change, there are a few references in the rules which we can look to here:

2-1-2 makes the scorer a part of our crew. They are their to "assist" us during a game with tasks such as keeping score, tracking time-outs, and recording fouls.

2-11-11 says "a bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time". If we accept that the scorer is an extension of the crew then why/how the "bookkeeping mistake" was made does not set aside the fact that it can be corrected. If the official made an error causing a bookkeeping mistake it should be corrected.

2-3 gives us the authority to decide points not covered in the rules and since the specific situation of needing to correct giving a foul to the wrong player/team then it seems likely to apply.

For those who argue that we are prohibited from correcting this error because it is not one of the five errors listed in 2-10 it is important to note that it does not apply to this situation since it is specifically addressing an error resulting from "setting aside a rule" and is not addressing other errors.

Finally, according to the rule book we should not place a team or player at a disadvantage or allow an advantage not "intended by rule". Since there is no rule that says it can't be changed and the mistake will penalize the player/team as the game progresses (fouls out, bonus) then NOT correcting it would be a bigger mistake.

This is another situation that until I see a case play or a rule that tells me otherwise I am going to err on the side of making the correction to penalize the right pkayer/team.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:32pm
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of course you should get the right foul reported. I don't think it even should be a debate. Stop play and get it right.
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:39pm
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Just to be clear... I would like nothing more than to be able to fix this error. But we have to do things by the book. So I'm just looking for solid reasoning for being able to fix things.
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Old Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Just to be clear... I would like nothing more than to be able to fix this error. But we have to do things by the book. So I'm just looking for solid reasoning for being able to fix things.
I think I outlined enough solid reasoning for correcting this error. I'm not sure there is anything "in the book" that tells you how to do it "by the book". One of the truisms we toss around here a lot is that if its not illegal, then its legal. Seeing nothing in the rules that forbids fixing it, then it is reasonable to fix it.
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Old Sun Jan 25, 2015, 12:16am
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Johnny d I watched college guys change a foul later when a partner brought information on which player (on the same team) was the actual fouler. Why would the same not be true for a foul changed from one team to another?
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