Can this be fixed?

[jprideaux]

I'm really not trying to open a can of worms. This situation really did happen, and I'd like to know how to fix it in the future.

B1 hits a sinking line drive. F8 comes in and makes an apparent catch. BU calls B1 out. Offensive coach comes out of the dugout and tells PU that he is appealing the call. PU immediately rules "No catch" and puts B1 on 1B. Defensive coach did manage to convince the PU that that was not proper procedure. The offensive coach was then allowed to ask the BU if he needed help. BU now doubts his call and reverses his original call. Should the overrule have been put aside at that point? If so, should the original call have been left, or was it proper to allow the offensive coach to re-open with the BU? FWIW, I'm not concerned with the correctness of the judgment call as much as the proper mechanics. If proper mechanics had been followed, the same call would have been arrived at, as BU said to me later that he was somewhat screened on the play and not positive on his original call.

John

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by jprideaux
I'm really not trying to open a can of worms. This situation really did happen, and I'd like to know how to fix it in the future.

B1 hits a sinking line drive. F8 comes in and makes an apparent catch. BU calls B1 out. Offensive coach comes out of the dugout and tells PU that he is appealing the call. PU immediately rules "No catch" and puts B1 on 1B. Defensive coach did manage to convince the PU that that was not proper procedure. The offensive coach was then allowed to ask the BU if he needed help. BU now doubts his call and reverses his original call. Should the overrule have been put aside at that point? If so, should the original call have been left, or was it proper to allow the offensive coach to re-open with the BU? FWIW, I'm not concerned with the correctness of the judgment call as much as the proper mechanics. If proper mechanics had been followed, the same call would have been arrived at, as BU said to me later that he was somewhat screened on the play and not positive on his original call.

John

Live with the change.

[WindyCityBlue]

One of my favorite subjects...

FYI, NO, IT WAS NOT HANDLED PROPERLY.
As has been discussed here ad nauseum, the professional and courteous thing to do at that level is to confer with your partner. If it is you that is screened, but is supposed to be your call, make eye contact with your partner and ask, "Do we have a catch?". If he indicates "yes", make the call. You will have to eat some crow, but better that you not make a no catch call and then have him rule contrary. Remember, the eighth rule of umpiring is "Call what you see."

If time was called after a ruling is made, get together and discuss what you saw. Get the call right. If you have a better angle on your partner's call, help him. Likewise, accept the help and learn from it.

Now, it sounds like the play was overruled without a conference. This is horesh*t etiquette, but it happens. A good pre-game and a thorough post game will prevent this from occuring the next time. NEVER let a coach influence your decision. Get together away from the players and coaches and protect each other. He's all you've got for that hour or so. Sure, one coach is going to be pissed, too bad. No matter what call you make or reverse, someone is going to be upset.

[JEL]

Remember, the eighth rule of umpiring is "Call what you see."


What are the first seven?

[DG]

Originally posted by jprideaux
I'm really not trying to open a can of worms. This situation really did happen, and I'd like to know how to fix it in the future.

B1 hits a sinking line drive. F8 comes in and makes an apparent catch. BU calls B1 out. Offensive coach comes out of the dugout and tells PU that he is appealing the call. PU immediately rules "No catch" and puts B1 on 1B. Defensive coach did manage to convince the PU that that was not proper procedure. The offensive coach was then allowed to ask the BU if he needed help. BU now doubts his call and reverses his original call. Should the overrule have been put aside at that point? If so, should the original call have been left, or was it proper to allow the offensive coach to re-open with the BU? FWIW, I'm not concerned with the correctness of the judgment call as much as the proper mechanics. If proper mechanics had been followed, the same call would have been arrived at, as BU said to me later that he was somewhat screened on the play and not positive on his original call.

John

If I am PU, I say, coach, you are kidding me, you are not out here appealing a judgement call my partner has made. I tell you what I will do. I will go discuss it with him, and when we get through, the call will stand, and you can throw your hat down and your fans will think well of you. Now if that is not satisfactory, I will not bother to waste my time discussing with him, to make you look good, and you can either go back to the dugout, or get ejected for arguing a judgement call. What do you want?

If I am BU, and my partner just overruled me without discussion, I am going to be real pissed. We might finish the game like professionals, but afterwards, we will have an unfriendly discussion, and I will make a mental note that I don't care to work with that sum***** again.

[sir_eldren]

Originally posted by DG
. . . I will make a mental note that I don't care to work with that sum***** again.

A bit harsh, don't you think? What if you were working with a young umpire who's making a sincere effort to learn the ways of the umpire? I can understand somebody who should know (a year's experience or many games worked), or somebody new who just won't listen and you've discussed this matter before. But what of a new offical? You call him a pudwhacker and never work with him again?

-Craig

[WindyCityBlue]

JEL...good catch.

People (me included) love using, "The first rule of upiring is..." so I just thought I'd have some fun.

I'm sure I could come up with the Ten Commandments of Umpiring if pressed, though.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by jprideaux
... BU calls B1 out. Offensive coach comes out of the dugout and tells PU that he is appealing the call. PU immediately rules "No catch" and puts B1 on 1B. John

Typical amateur mistake - the coach comes out to the PU (who did not make the original call) and wants an appeal. The PU should direct the coach to the umpire making the call and then shut his mouth! The calling umpire will either entertain the appeal or not.

Originally posted by jprideaux
... Defensive coach did manage to convince the PU that that was not proper procedure.John

This umpire crew looks real good now! It takes another coach to come out and inform them that the whole procedure was incorrect.

Originally posted by jprideaux
The offensive coach was then allowed to ask the BU if he needed help. John

You know, this crew should have never taken the field! It's bad enough that the PU changed the call in the first place but now the crew is allowing another coach to get involved with the mess. This crew needs some serious training.

There is a procedure that should be followed. When an umpire makes a call, any questions or appeal should be directed to the calling umpire. Now if the calling umpire feels that he needs to discuss the play with his partner he should initiate this. From that point on, coaches are not to be involved - the decision must be rendered by the umpires only. Better yet, get into the right position, use the proper delay method and above all, if you need help, please try to get it BEFORE you make your call. Both you and your partner will look better and get less flack from the coaches.

[DG]

Originally posted by sir_eldren

A bit harsh, don't you think? What if you were working with a young umpire who's making a sincere effort to learn the ways of the umpire? I can understand somebody who should know (a year's experience or many games worked), or somebody new who just won't listen and you've discussed this matter before. But what of a new offical? You call him a pudwhacker and never work with him again?

-Craig

No, I called him a sum*****, but you bring up a different situation, ie I am working with a rookie. In that situation, when he overrules me without so much as asking me a question, we will have a conference (away from the coaches earshot) during which I will explain the error in his ways, and then we will agree to reverse his overrule back to the original call. We will call the coach who was appealing over and I will say "Coach, I (BU) was closest to that play, and it was my call, and I believe it was correct or I would not have made it. My partner should not have overruled me on that and you know he does not have the right to do that, and you know you can't appeal to one umpire to overrule another. So we are going to go with the original call, batter is out. Now you can do whatever you want, short of ticking me off, but then you need to go back to the dugout and live with it."

Then, I might work with the rookie again, but I don't think he would ever overrule another umpire again, which is the lesson he needs to learn on this day.

[Edited by DG on Jul 9th, 2004 at 10:21 AM]

[jprideaux]

Both umps were young. Around here we frequently have HS players calling games. There isn't much in the way of training. The good news about the whole situation was that there was no real blow-up. Defense was very frustrated by the outcome, but the whole mess was handled as a discussion, not an argument. PU felt very badly that he handled the situation incorrectly (and that he had no idea how to proceed once the mistake occurred). But it remained a GAME for the KIDS, not a show for the adults.

John

[LMan]

/////But it remained a GAME for the KIDS, not a show for the adults.////

I hate to read this, because it usually is used in the context of asking umpires to ignore/distort a playing rule or two *grin*

[jprideaux]

Originally posted by LMan
/////But it remained a GAME for the KIDS, not a show for the adults.////

I hate to read this, because it usually is used in the context of asking umpires to ignore/distort a playing rule or two *grin*

Agreed. I have always felt, though, that teaching the kids how to play the game correctly (sportsmanship, mechanics, decision-making, and rules) is the primary reason we have recreational youth sports programs. That is why I hate rules at young levels that encourage kids to attempt plays that are usually the wrong decision at a higher age.

John

[Peruvian]

Typical amateur mistake - the coach comes out to the PU (who did not make the original call) and wants an appeal. The PU should direct the coach to the umpire making the call and then shut his mouth! The calling umpire will either entertain the appeal or not.

Exactly.