Most points scored by 1 player on 1 play - 10/15/other?

[luvhoops]

Originally Posted by La Rikardo

Situation: With just a few seconds remaining in the fourth quarter, B leads A by a score of 109 to 20. A1 attempts a three-point try, which is unsuccessful. While A1 is in the act of shooting, players B1, B2, B3, B4, and B5 commit a personal foul against A1 at approximately the same time. The clock is stopped with 0.5 seconds remaining. B's head coach, unhappy with the call, disrespectfully addresses an official and is charged with an unsporting technical foul. B's head coach disrespectfully addresses an official a second time and is charged with a second unsporting technical foul. Players B1, B2, B3, B4, and B5 each disrespectfully address an official two times and are each charged with two unsporting technical fouls. Bench personnel B6, B7, B8, B9, B10, B11, B12, B13, B14, as well as four of the team's five assistant coaches, disrespectfully address an official two times apiece and are each charged with two unsporting technical fouls. B's head coach; players B1, B2, B3, B4, and B5; and bench personnel B6, B7, B8, B9, B10, B11, B12, B13, B14, and the four assistant coaches who had been charged with two unsporting technical fouls are all disqualified. The other two bench personnel, B15 and the other assistant coach, disrespectfully address an official once and are each charged with one unsporting technical foul.

Ruling: This is a false multiple foul consisting of a multiple foul and several technical fouls. All awarded free throws will be shot with no players in marked lane spaces. A1 is awarded ten free throws for the multiple foul by B1, B2, B3, B4, and B5. After these free throws, any player or eligible substitute for A may shoot any or all of the 80 free throws awarded for the 40 technical fouls charged to B players and bench personnel. A will then be awarded a throw-in at the division line. The only B team member remaining is B15. B shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes B has an opportunity to win the game.

Original post indicated no Technical Fouls. Sigh.

[luvhoops]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I will confirm the multiple foul situation. In fact I'm gonna tell that as a joke at my coaches meeting tomorrow as a joke. I'll let you know how it goes.

Now you know the source of the question, a trivia question asked at a meeting.


It is simple:

1) In one act/motion, A1 attempts an unsuccessful 3-point shot and is fouled by 5 defenders AT THE SAME TIME. How many points can theoretically be scored?

2) In one act/motion, A1 attempts an unsuccessful 3-point shot and is fouled by 5 defenders AT DIFFERENT TIMES. How many points can theoretically be scored?

Those are the plays. There is nothing more to add. There are no viewpoints, technical fouls, or any other information and we are not in space.

Who can simply provide a number and a case/rule as an answer?

[LSCoach]

Originally Posted by potato

By rule, yes. In practice, no.

I have a question. Why is this the case? I've seen a shooter on his way up get fouled, release the shot, then get leveled by an attempted shot blocker. I've never expected my shooter to get more than the accustomed 2 free throws.

In another thread Mutantducky brought up a scenario where he was adamant that he'd award free throws to a shooter that has released the shot and no longer in the act of shooting. By rule he was wrong but in his defense I've seen it multiple times. It's almost as if in practice, if the ball is still in the air, the shots are awarded even if the shooter is no longer in the act of shooting.

Why would the letter of the rule not be followed in this circumstance but the letter of the rule was important his circumstance?

To qualify this, I'm not saying I have an opinion one way or the other. I'm here because understanding the rules and there interpretations make me a better coach and has helped immensely in communicating with officials properly.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by LSCoach

Why would the letter of the rule not be followed in this circumstance but the letter of the rule was important his circumstance?

It is a matter of penalizing more the rules allow for the infraction that has occurred (shooter having already landed) vs. applying judgement to not call a foul on the 2nd contact since it can be judged that two contacts typically don't create any more disadvantage than one. However, the multiple foul exists for that one time that is just might be needed.

[luvhoops]

Just like in society, there are some rules that are never enforced. The rule/case books are in need of editing.

Multiple fouls happen every game. It is NEVER called/adjudicated properly. There are countless times when a shooter near the basket gets fouled by more than one person. Only one foul is called. I've even seen plays where an official jokingly says aloud "pick one." Just like Rule 4-24 Article 7 happens EVERY game and is not enforced based on letter of rule. (I sense another topic coming)

Art 7. It is not legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a dribble or when throwing for goal.

[Adam]

Your last example doesn't work, especially with this year's POE.

As for your other complaint, the reflexive answer to any multiple foul question will always include a warning to never call it. The next one to make this call will be the first. Ever. Anywhere.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by luvhoops

Just like in society, there are some rules that are never enforced. The rule/case books are in need of editing.

Multiple fouls happen every game. It is NEVER called/adjudicated properly. There are countless times when a shooter near the basket gets fouled by more than one person. Only one foul is called. I've even seen plays where an official jokingly says aloud "pick one." Just like Rule 4-24 Article 7 happens EVERY game and is not enforced based on letter of rule. (I sense another topic coming)

Art 7. It is not legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a dribble or when throwing for goal.

Opinion or do you have some statistical evidence to back this up? In 30 years of officiating 50-55 games/year only saw it once.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by luvhoops

Under NFHS rules, what are the most points that can be theoretically scored by one player on a single basketball play? Exclude repeated technical/intentional/flagrant fouls.

I was using Case book from 2008-2009. (case plays listed may be different in current books)

Based on (Multiple Foul) Case 4.19.11, it could be 10.
B1-B5 simultaneously foul A1 attempting an unsuccessful 3-point shot?
2x5 = 10

Based on (False Multiple Foul) Case 4.19.12, it could be 15.
B1-B5 foul A1, all at different times, attempting an unsuccessful 3-point shot?
3x5 = 15

For False Multiple Fouls, if it is always and only 2 shots for each foul, then it would be 10 and not 15.

Please confirm or disprove these thoughts. Looking for rule/case references only, not stuff like whether it could happen or anything along those lines.

i'm sorry i said you were in outer space. i say the answer is 3. "how many points ON A single play?" the free throws are separate "plays." now if you said "as a result of" or something else i'd do all the other thinking….

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by luvhoops

Now you know the source of the question, a trivia question asked at a meeting.


It is simple:

1) In one act/motion, A1 attempts an unsuccessful 3-point shot and is fouled by 5 defenders AT THE SAME TIME. How many points can theoretically be scored?

2) In one act/motion, A1 attempts an unsuccessful 3-point shot and is fouled by 5 defenders AT DIFFERENT TIMES. How many points can theoretically be scored?

Those are the plays. There is nothing more to add. There are no viewpoints, technical fouls, or any other information and we are not in space.

Who can simply provide a number and a case/rule as an answer?

The rule on multiple fouls says "AT APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME"

All fouls during the second play will be "AT APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME". So, the second play is not a False Multiple Foul play; the second play is a Multiple Foul play.

The first play is also a Multiple Foul play.

So, both plays are adjudicated the same. 10 FTs.

[luvhoops]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Opinion or do you have some statistical evidence to back this up? In 30 years of officiating 50-55 games/year only saw it once.

"Saw it" or "saw it called"?

I meant that multiple fouls occur all the time, however, I have never seen a multiple foul called/adjudicated.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The rule on multiple fouls says "AT APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME"

All fouls during the second play will be "AT APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME". So, the second play is not a False Multiple Foul play; the second play is a Multiple Foul play.

The first play is also a Multiple Foul play.

So, both plays are adjudicated the same. 10 FTs.

on the facts now--unsuccessful 3 point shot i will say the answer is 0 can be scored on that play. any free throws are separate plays. as far as the number of free throws--

the definition of false multiple foul says 2 or more fouls by same team and last committed before clock started. we have a case book play which says airborne A1 fouled in act of shooting by B1. B2 slides into landing area and fouls A1 before he gets foot to ground. Ruling calls those false multiple fouls. 2 shots for each. so we know in that situation they are not to be considered "at approximately same time." the play has been in case book forever...

in the second play mentioned we are told that first foul is committed and then the others, different times. say first foul was on arm--last foul a block before shooter returns to floor. 3 in between. i think you would call them all false multiples.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Opinion or do you have some statistical evidence to back this up? In 30 years of officiating 50-55 games/year only saw it once.

You've only seen multiple players foul the same shooter once in 30 years?

Every game may be a bit extreme, but once in 30 years seems extreme, also.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by luvhoops

"Saw it" or "saw it called"?

I meant that multiple fouls occur all the time, however, I have never seen a multiple foul called/adjudicated.

Not only have I never seen it called, I've never heard of anyone who has seen it called. Haven't even heard a myth, or seen a fuzzy photo. At least with Sasquatch, we've got some photos.

[luvhoops]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The rule on multiple fouls says "AT APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME"

All fouls during the second play will be "AT APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME". So, the second play is not a False Multiple Foul play; the second play is a Multiple Foul play.

The first play is also a Multiple Foul play.

So, both plays are adjudicated the same. 10 FTs.

One has to love you bob. We have been discussing Case 4.19.11 and Case 4.19.12. Directly in the book, for Case 4.19.12, it is titled "False Multiple Foul" and you are saying it is not a False Multiple Foul.

Yes, I realize that this is off-topic and apologize. I presume that bob notified the NFHS of their "error" and that they will be correcting it in future case books. What was their response? For any upcoming posts bob, please just quickly indicate that the NFHS book is incorrect. With that, we won't have so many back-and-forth posts. We will know, immediately, to disregard the book, and go by what you say.

At the very least, bob did provide an actual number in his first responsive post.

[luvhoops]

Originally Posted by Adam

Not only have I never seen it called, I've never heard of anyone who has seen it called. Haven't even heard a myth, or seen a fuzzy photo. At least with Sasquatch, we've got some photos.

After all this, try reading NFHS Case 6.7.4, which involves multiple fouls by opponents at different times (False Multiple Foul). I have seen that occur dozens of time but again, never called and adjudicated as written. We probably have all seen it. A1 driving hard to the hoop, B1 reaches and fouls A1 on the arm, then A1 charges into B2.