Video Request: Dec. 19 Arizona-UTEP Traveling???

[just another ref]

None of these are close to being legal. For those who say: This is a travel, but it is not called at (whatever) level. Is this okay with you? Do you not call it either because you've been instructed not to? Or because nobody else does and you don't want to be the only one? Or what?


I call it when I see it and all of these in the video were very easy to see, in my opinion.

[mutantducky]

I don't know...spin moves like these have been around for a long time. They are unusual and when players do them I usually think it is a sign of skill and I rarely see travels called on these calls. When I slow the second one down I see it but I'm not positive the first one is a travel. I thought the third one was but now all I'm seeing is a good spin move, with the pivot foot established and he steps through with the other foot (and gets blocked)
I can see how you can argue that in the third video the earlier foot is the pivot and not the second one closer to the key but I'm good with the first and third not being called. In the second I think it is clear his pivot foot is set then comes down again.

[Matt S.]

Not saying they are or aren't travels, but considering a man that has worked the Final 4 multiple times over the past few years was the one on two of those plays, he must be doing a lot more right than wrong.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Matt S.

Not saying they are or aren't travels, but considering a man that has worked the Final 4 multiple times over the past few years was the one on two of those plays, he must be doing a lot more right than wrong.

Yeah, they don't call it there, either.

[Sharpshooternes]

Look, all three of these plays are a travel but the common thing that I see on all of them is that they are pretty much two official plays and very complex to officiate. All of them should have the lead watching the defense for contact and the trail or C watching the feet for travels. The second is complicated even more due to the fact that the lead is right in the middle of a rotation.

I can see why all three of these were missed. There is a whole lot of stuff going on that requires at least 2 officials to officiate these plays appropriately. I bet these are missed more often in HS than college due to the crew discipline and training to know that it is a two official play. I don't think in at least these instances the officials chose not to call it. I just think they were looking at other (appropriately) things.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

For those who say: This is a travel, but it is not called at (whatever) level. Is this okay with you? Do you not call it either because you've been instructed not to? Or because nobody else does and you don't want to be the only one? Or what?

No answers forthcoming to this question. It's like having a "funny" relative. Everybody knows it's a problem. Nobody wants to talk about it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No answers forthcoming to this question. It's like having a "funny" relative. Everybody knows it's a problem. Nobody wants to talk about it.

Problem? That is a little overblown. We are not going to get all travels, no matter how many ways you want to try to act like high school officials are so perfect on this violation.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Problem? That is a little overblown. We are not going to get all travels, no matter how many ways you want to try to act like high school officials are so perfect on this violation.

Peace

BNR made the statement here that these were travels, but they are seldom called. He is not the first to put it like this. If something is a violation, but is "seldom called", that indicates that it is being intentionally ignored, as opposed to being frequently missed. But I have never heard an explanation why. I'm still not totally comfortable with the way we (don't) call 3 seconds, but that, as far as I'm concerned, is not even close to this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

BNR made the statement here that these were travels, but they are seldom called. He is not the first to put it like this. If something is a violation, but is "seldom called", that indicates that it is being intentionally ignored, as opposed to being frequently missed. But I have never heard an explanation why. I'm still not totally comfortable with the way we (don't) call 3 seconds, but that, as far as I'm concerned, is not even close to this.

He did not say they were intentionally ignored. Something that is rarely called can also be that way because it is hard to tell. We get the benefit of replay, open look and can look at it over and over to determine. An official on a game has one shot and has to not only see the pivot foot, determine when the violation actually took place. If you do not see it properly, it is not going to be called. I would rather miss a "technical" travel than call one that was not there at all.

And yes you have heard many explanations, you just ignore what you are being told. I know I have said this to you more than once.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

He did not say they were intentionally ignored. Something that is rarely called can also be that way because it is hard to tell. We get the benefit of replay, open look and can look at it over and over to determine. An official on a game has one shot and has to not only see the pivot foot, determine when the violation actually took place. If you do not see it properly, it is not going to be called. I would rather miss a "technical" travel than call one that was not there at all.

Do you think it was hard to tell on any of these?


I, too, would rather miss one than call one that was wrong. But I would rather call one wrong than "miss" ten, and I think that ratio may be conservative.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Do you think it was hard to tell on any of these?


I, too, would rather miss one than call one that was wrong. But I would rather call one wrong than "miss" ten, and I think that ratio may be conservative.

Yes, it is in real time often.

Peace

Originally Posted by just another ref

For those who say: This is a travel, but it is not called at (whatever) level. Is this okay with you? Do you not call it either because you've been instructed not to? Or because nobody else does and you don't want to be the only one? Or what?

I don't work that level but I frequently no-call these moves at the HS/AAU level. To answer your questions, yes that is okay with me. I have not received instruction on calling/not calling traveling, other than the PoE. Others do call these but many officials let them go as well. Like it or not a few rules (traveling, 3 seconds, carrying, etc.) have been suspended in favor of a more attractive brand of basketball for the viewer. To be frank, people don't want to see a "by the book" violation-filled basketball game, which had led to the increased use of advantage/disadvantage philosophy in the calling of these violations.

Not to say I agree with this move but I referee to the expectations of my supervisors.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Others do call these but many officials let them go as well.

This is the problem. We have a black and white rule, as opposed to varying judgment on whether or not to make a call. He lifted the pivot, then put it back down, but some choose to let it go to create "a more attractive brand of basketball for the viewer."


This creates inconsistency, which is our worst enemy as officials.

[Rich1]

I have a travel in all three video examples and call this any time I see it. If a pivot foot is established and it comes off the floor and is then put back down it is a travel. The dribbler can't pick up the ball, plant his right foot, spin onto his left foot, and then replant his right foot on the way to the basket (or any where else) when I'm on the whistle.

Now, if I am not sure he planted the first foot before clutching the ball then I can't call the violation - call it a miss if you want but if it is that close or I am not sure then I don't guess. I know refs who say anytime a player spins like this it should be assumed they traveled but that's not any better than those who choose to ignore it.

I do think I get more grief from coaches for calling it because so many do not. I agree with other posters that its a rule that beeds to be consistently enforced. I also know tat not everyone has the experience or ability to pick up on the smaller nuances of the game such as this which is why they do not see the travel when it occurs.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is the problem. We have a black and white rule, as opposed to varying judgment on whether or not to make a call. He lifted the pivot, then put it back down, but some choose to let it go to create "a more attractive brand of basketball for the viewer."


This creates inconsistency, which is our worst enemy as officials.

There were just a bulletin put out by the NCAA Men's side and John Adams showing several travels called. So travels are being called but once again, they are not easy to identify. And I could show you the same situation with HS officials. It has nothing to do with level.

Peace