Count the basket?

[BatteryPowered]

First...to MD Longhorn,

The only way I have any idea about what my partner called was due to the initial report after his whistle and actions. While you are correct that I did not see the foul he called because I was on the three-point shooter it is equally true that he should have no idea if the shot should have counted because he should have (apparently was) focused on the action in the lane. I know for a fact that I heard his whistle a split second before the arching shot hit the net. I usually do not have a count during the flight of a shot so I do not know how long it was after the shot...my guess is a second or two.

As I said, he was so emphatic and demonstrative that, given the lop sided nature of the game, I chose not to go to him and discuss it then. It everyone wants to get onto me for that failing I will take it. If it would have been a tight game I would have certainly gone to him when everything unfolded.

This guy didn't like to talk...period. Having a pre-game was like pulling teeth. If he said 10 words I would be surprised. After a couple of points and it being obvious he didn't want to contribute I approached it by saying the approach I normally take (talking to the players early, strictly calling the hands on the dribbler from the start, etc.). He just nodded.

Afterwards I said I wanted to discuss the play and he said "Nothing to discuss." I asked a couple of questions about the situation in theory (don't remember the exact wording) and he just kept changing clothes without acknowledging my presence.

Tonight I will look in the books (rule and case) to see exactly when the ball would have become dead and study the relevant examples.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered

Tonight I will look in the books (rule and case) to see exactly when the ball would have become dead and study the relevant examples.

Basketball Fundamentals:

3. A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through unless canceled by a throw-in violation or a player-control foul.

16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

ART. 7

The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:

A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs (see exceptions a, b and c below).

ART. 9

The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:

A violation, as in Rule 9, Sections 2 through 13, occurs (see exception d below).

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:

a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.

c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket.

d. Article 9 as in 9-3-3 or 9-13-1, occurs by an opponent.

NOTE: If A1's try or tap is legally touched in flight, the goal counts if made, if the period ends before or after the legal touching. If the touching is interference or goaltending by A, no points are scored. If B violates, the points are awarded - either two or three depending on whether it was a two or three-point try or tap.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. The ball is dead when the foul occurs, not when it is called.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

Not true. You should consult some of the RULES FUNDAMENTALS on page 73.

#16 "The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)."

#3 "A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through unless canceled by a throw-in violation or a player-control foul."

#13 "A live-ball foul by the offense (team in control or last in control if the ball is loose), or the expiration of time for a quarter or extra period, causes the ball to become dead immediately, unless the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. The ball also becomes dead when a player-control foul occurs.

So it is the moment of the foul that makes the ball dead, not the when the whistle blows. If the try is not yet in flight at the time of the foul, then the ball would become dead and there would be no goal as a dead ball, not a live ball, entered the basket.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered

First...to MD Longhorn,

The only way I have any idea about what my partner called was due to the initial report after his whistle and actions. While you are correct that I did not see the foul he called because I was on the three-point shooter it is equally true that he should have no idea if the shot should have counted because he should have (apparently was) focused on the action in the lane. I know for a fact that I heard his whistle a split second before the arching shot hit the net. I usually do not have a count during the flight of a shot so I do not know how long it was after the shot...my guess is a second or two.

As I said, he was so emphatic and demonstrative that, given the lop sided nature of the game, I chose not to go to him and discuss it then. It everyone wants to get onto me for that failing I will take it. If it would have been a tight game I would have certainly gone to him when everything unfolded.

This guy didn't like to talk...period. Having a pre-game was like pulling teeth. If he said 10 words I would be surprised. After a couple of points and it being obvious he didn't want to contribute I approached it by saying the approach I normally take (talking to the players early, strictly calling the hands on the dribbler from the start, etc.). He just nodded.

Afterwards I said I wanted to discuss the play and he said "Nothing to discuss." I asked a couple of questions about the situation in theory (don't remember the exact wording) and he just kept changing clothes without acknowledging my presence.

Tonight I will look in the books (rule and case) to see exactly when the ball would have become dead and study the relevant examples.

I would have handled the entire situation just as you did.
Let him make this determination as he is the one who called the foul and he didn't want any input from you about anything over the course of the entire game.
There is a reason that your assignor has him working blow-out girls games. Unfortunate that you had to deal with him as a partner. No fun.

[paxsonref]

Posted on Arbiter - NCAA Women

DATE:

11/25/2014

RULE:

2-7-12, 6-5-1-f

QUESTION:

If we have an offensive foul (i.e. illegal screen) that occurs before the ball is released for a try, but the whistle does not sound until after the try is in flight, would we have to count the basket if it is made and then possibly shoot 1-and-1 bonus (if applicable) at the other end since there is no team control on a shot? I am led to believe this based on the 11/6 interp, but feel that we are rewarding the offense for an illegal act. I have a video of just such a play if you need to see it.

Would it make more sense to have the interp worded as such:

When the official has definitive knowledge that the foul happened prior to the release of the ball (for offensive fouls) or prior to the beginning of the try motion (for defensive fouls), then the shot shall be waved off. When the official does not have definitive knowledge, the sounding of the whistle will determine when the foul happened.

ANSWER:

The interpretation that was posted was based on previous responses to this question which may or may not have been made available to a wider audience. The rule is clear that the whistle sounds when a foul occurs (Rule 2-7.12) and the timer does not stop the clock until an official signals (again, present tense) a foul (Rule 5-11.1.a). A foul has not occurred until the whistle is blown. Previously, there was a video bulletin (2010-11, Video Bulletin #5 - Illegal Screen with Successful Try) which gives guidance for when it may be “too close to call” in determining whether or not the act of shooting occurred before or after a defensive foul not committed against the shooter or whether the ball is in flight before a team control foul occurs.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

Posted on Arbiter - NCAA Women

DATE:

11/25/2014

RULE:

2-7-12, 6-5-1-f

QUESTION:

If we have an offensive foul (i.e. illegal screen) that occurs before the ball is released for a try, but the whistle does not sound until after the try is in flight, would we have to count the basket if it is made and then possibly shoot 1-and-1 bonus (if applicable) at the other end since there is no team control on a shot? I am led to believe this based on the 11/6 interp, but feel that we are rewarding the offense for an illegal act. I have a video of just such a play if you need to see it.

Would it make more sense to have the interp worded as such:

When the official has definitive knowledge that the foul happened prior to the release of the ball (for offensive fouls) or prior to the beginning of the try motion (for defensive fouls), then the shot shall be waved off. When the official does not have definitive knowledge, the sounding of the whistle will determine when the foul happened.

ANSWER:

The interpretation that was posted was based on previous responses to this question which may or may not have been made available to a wider audience. The rule is clear that the whistle sounds when a foul occurs (Rule 2-7.12) and the timer does not stop the clock until an official signals (again, present tense) a foul (Rule 5-11.1.a). A foul has not occurred until the whistle is blown. Previously, there was a video bulletin (2010-11, Video Bulletin #5 - Illegal Screen with Successful Try) which gives guidance for when it may be “too close to call” in determining whether or not the act of shooting occurred before or after a defensive foul not committed against the shooter or whether the ball is in flight before a team control foul occurs.

There's so much wrong with that interpretation, but I'll stick with the fact that we're not talking about NCAAW rules here, so I don't have to worry about this particular wrong interpretation.

Someone needs to vet that crap before it gets published.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

There's so much wrong with that interpretation, but I'll stick with the fact that we're not talking about NCAAW rules here, so I don't have to worry about this particular wrong interpretation.

Someone needs to vet that crap before it gets published.

Absolutely! Sounds like Mary Struckhoff screwing up the NCAA rules just as she used to do with the NFHS rules. So sad.

[Kansas Ref]

In all seriousness, lol @ your partner " waving arms like a windmill" to wipe the basket.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Absolutely! Sounds like Mary Struckhoff screwing up the NCAA rules just as she used to do with the NFHS rules. So sad.

You know Mary's not involved anymore, right?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You know Mary's not involved anymore, right?

Doesn't Mary have something to do with NCAA Softball? I thought she left the NFHS to go to the NCAA but I do not remember in what capacity.

MTD, Sr.