Stack on throw-in

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I was merely citing the "real" rule that some non-officials often confuse with the "mythological" rule,

I don't think we can narrow it so much.

[Pantherdreams]

I don't disagree but I would like a solution it the situation it creates:

Team A wants to run an inbounds play where they stack 4 players front to back. Lined up facing the ball.

Team B does not want to allow players to stack so same as in during games play deny their player the ball and try to beat them to spots.

Now you've got live defense being played during a dead ball which means that Team A is going to respond by 1) playing live back (sprint to spots, cutting to get screen angles, etc). 2) Or they are simply going to walk and try to bump push or illegally screen defenders out of the way to get their stack set up.

I'm ok with calling the foul on either team who commits it during the dead ball but you are turning time when one official may be reporting a foul, communicating with table or confering with other officials into a potential moment where players are competeing for space and angles and potentially fouling without even a live ball in a race to spots. If post players where jostling for position during a dead ball we would tell them to knock it off. If one team wants to stack and want team wants to play denial you are setting up a situation where they may need to compete at live speed during dead balls.

I only bring it up because before we started making the stack give room thats what was happening. As soon as a violation or OOB was called and the offense called for their inbounds play defense was going full deny while offense was trying to jog or walk to spots. Causing bumps and shoving to occur as Team A is trying to get to a spot and during and dead ball Team B is now beating them to spots and forcing them to take the long way round or not get the spot they expect which they didn't they would just try to walk through to their spot and react badly because it was supposed to be a dead ball.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I don't disagree but I would like a solution it the situation it creates:

Team A wants to run an inbounds play where they stack 4 players front to back. Lined up facing the ball.

Team B does not want to allow players to stack so same as in during games play deny their player the ball and try to beat them to spots.

Now you've got live defense being played during a dead ball which means that Team A is going to respond by 1) playing live back (sprint to spots, cutting to get screen angles, etc). 2) Or they are simply going to walk and try to bump push or illegally screen defenders out of the way to get their stack set up.

I'm ok with calling the foul on either team who commits it during the dead ball but you are turning time when one official may be reporting a foul, communicating with table or confering with other officials into a potential moment where players are competeing for space and angles and potentially fouling without even a live ball in a race to spots. If post players where jostling for position during a dead ball we would tell them to knock it off. If one team wants to stack and want team wants to play denial you are setting up a situation where they may need to compete at live speed during dead balls.

I only bring it up because before we started making the stack give room thats what was happening. As soon as a violation or OOB was called and the offense called for their inbounds play defense was going full deny while offense was trying to jog or walk to spots. Causing bumps and shoving to occur as Team A is trying to get to a spot and during and dead ball Team B is now beating them to spots and forcing them to take the long way round or not get the spot they expect which they didn't they would just try to walk through to their spot and react badly because it was supposed to be a dead ball.

The rules say every player is entitled to a spot on the floor if they get there first…. If two A players stack in front of the rim very close together or 4 players in yours, and i see a B trying to force his way in i will tell the B player "they were there first and you are not allowed in." firmly. that has always solved it for me.

if it doesn't you need to penalize. if you have commotion fighting for spots before the throw in you need to talk to players and/or penalize. When you separate the players in the stack that may make things easier for you and your crew but you are affecting the game by changing the rules. many stack plays won't work the way they are supposed to when you let a player in. you force the coach to call another play.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The rules say every player is entitled to a spot on the floor if they get there first…. If two A players stack in front of the rim very close together or 4 players in yours, and i see a B trying to force his way in i will tell the B player "they were there first and you are not allowed in." firmly. that has always solved it for me.

if it doesn't you need to penalize. if you have commotion fighting for spots before the throw in you need to talk to players and/or penalize. When you separate the players in the stack that may make things easier for you and your crew but you are affecting the game by changing the rules. many stack plays won't work the way they are supposed to when you let a player in. you force the coach to call another play.

I agree.

We however do a lot of 2 man games and if a team wants to prevent a stack then the rules are encouraging them to compete during dead balls. Do you just let this happen and start calling techs and unsportsmanlikes when it happens?

I can tell them to cool it but if one coach says I want to run a stack and one says I want my kids to get to the spot first so they can't basically you are getting live play during dead balls.

Setting up situations where we know more unsportsmanlikes and t's are going to need to be called and making it difficult to report to the table and confer with partners seems like poor game management . . . I've refered this on to our assignor and artibter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I agree.

We however do a lot of 2 man games and if a team wants to prevent a stack then the rules are encouraging them to compete during dead balls. Do you just let this happen and start calling techs and unsportsmanlikes when it happens?

I can tell them to cool it but if one coach says I want to run a stack and one says I want my kids to get to the spot first so they can't basically you are getting live play during dead balls.

Setting up situations where we know more unsportsmanlikes and t's are going to need to be called and making it difficult to report to the table and confer with partners seems like poor game management . . . I've refered this on to our assignor and artibter.

It seems to me there are ways of addressing this without telling a team to stop doing what they're allowed to because the other team can't follow the rules.

Offense starts setting up their stack, if the defense gets there first, they can have it. If the offense then moves their stack two feet to the right and gets their first, they can have it. If the defense horns in and moves the offense from the stack, call the dead ball intentional contact technical foul. It'll stop real fast.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I agree.

We however do a lot of 2 man games and if a team wants to prevent a stack then the rules are encouraging them to compete during dead balls. Do you just let this happen and start calling techs and unsportsmanlikes when it happens?

I can tell them to cool it but if one coach says I want to run a stack and one says I want my kids to get to the spot first so they can't basically you are getting live play during dead balls.

Setting up situations where we know more unsportsmanlikes and t's are going to need to be called and making it difficult to report to the table and confer with partners seems like poor game management . . . I've refered this on to our assignor and artibter.

Pantherdreams,

Maybe others have different perspective but i just havnt seen this rise to the level you are describing. if players are trying to get in the stack i would tell them they are not allowed. if they continue to fight…penalize. again, the defender who tries to continually bump and stay in front of the offense during a dead ball---talk to him. if he doesn't stop it you will need to penalize. players will listen to the whistle--or have to sit down.

i would urge you to try talking, then penalizing rather than letting the defense in. the offense is going to run stack plays. they should. under the basket those are scoring plays. many wouldn't/won't work if you let the defense in. when you do that you are changing the rules and favoring the defense. good luck to you.