Bad Partner

[just another ref]

Forget for a moment about how right or wrong the call may have been. What would it take to make you get involved in the 5 second call from any position other than trail?

I think my partner would have to hit his head and be unconscious first.

So what do you do first then, call 5 seconds or call timeout and seek medical attention for him?

Depends on who the partner is, I guess.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I've never seen this. I really believe I would go to the guy and tell him he has no business calling this, it isn't his responsibility to call this. I would then call both coaches together and tell them we have an inadvertent whistle and continue from there. I would then call my supervisor immediately after the game. There is absolutely no reason for the trail to get involved with this play.

It's easy to say that you would do that when watching a video. But when you're the person having the bus driven over you and then having it backed up and driven over you a second time, well...

Yes, I'm the new trail. I could easily have deleted this thread -- I have the power, you know -- but what purpose would it serve? Besides, every time someone accuses me of being a red ass or a hothead, I can just point to this video to prove that I have restraint even I didn't know that I have.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's easy to say that you would do that when watching a video. But when you're the person having the bus driven over you and then having it backed up and driven over you a second time, well...

Yes, I'm the new trail. I could easily have deleted this thread -- I have the power, you know -- but what purpose would it serve? Besides, every time someone accuses me of being a red ass or a hothead, I can just point to this video to prove that I have restraint even I didn't know that I have.

You're right, it is hard to say what someone would do in a certain situation without actually being in it. I was in no way saying you were at fault, or what you did was wrong. Please don't read my post wrong, my whole point was why is the new lead even counting. I actually think you showed incredible restraint, I probably would have lost my mind!

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

If, somehow, you get the partner on board with this the explanation should be, "Coaches, there was an inadvertent whistle. Black/Blue will have the throw-in and be able to run the end line." Saying the count started incorrectly isn't true. Two people may have been counting but that's a different issue.

Interesting point. I guess I was thinking of it more like "bringing information to my partner" and my partner changes the call based on this information rather than an inadvertant whistle (e.g. Parter, I'm 100% certain that the ball was not available to the thrower when you started your count -- I think this needs to be changed to Black/Blue ball).

But you're right. There should have not been a whistle, so it was in fact inadvertant. That said, I think the coaches are going to want more of an explaination and I think the best approach would be "the 5 second count was started incorrectly, and as a result, we have an inadvertant whistle ..."

Of course this is all assuming the partner goes with this, and if he doesn't trust you to make your own 5 second call, I doubt he's going to trust you when you say the call needs to be changed.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I've never seen this. I really believe I would go to the guy and tell him he has no business calling this, it isn't his responsibility to call this. I would then call both coaches together and tell them we have an inadvertent whistle and continue from there. I would then call my supervisor immediately after the game. There is absolutely no reason for the trail to get involved with this play.

Watch the video again...the new T did go to the partner and try to talk him out of it. Didn't work. And the calling official had already gone to the coach and told him what was being called - so too late to go with the inadvertent whistle explanation. Besides, does it look like the calling official is going to let the new T do anything about this? At that point there was really nothing the new T could do other than put the ball in play...it became a get in, get done, get out type of game for the last few seconds.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The actual details of what was discussed are hidden somewhere in the forum. I can't think of a good keyword to do an effective search for it.

Here is this same play discussed 3 years ago:

Have any of you ever called...

[SE Minnestoa Re]

This is why I like a regular partner. We have an understanding of whose responsibility it is when situations arise and we don't have clusters like this happen.

[BryanV21]

I'd like to know what the assignor thought after seeing this.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I'd like to know what the assignor thought after seeing this.

This is from the thread 3 years ago when this clip was discussed. You can read the entire thread here:

Have any of you ever called...

Originally Posted by Rich

It's been a busy couple of days as far as Christmas preparations and the like go, so I've mostly been following this thread on the phone while out and about. My single post thus far was while sitting at the Wisconsin / Mississippi Valley State game yesterday afternoon. I'll try to summarize my thoughts with some quick bulletpoints:

-- Yes, I was the "new trail."

-- Yes, I had a bus driven over me then had it stop, reverse, and back over me again.

-- garef314: My count in neither throw-in was *slow*. I timed the first throw-in (the one after the timeout) with a stopwatch and it's 3.5 seconds from handing her the ball until she released the throw-in. If you watch the video again, I'm between 3 and 4 on my count when the ball was released. Exactly how is that slow?

-- I was hyper-aware of the situation and remained so during the entire play until I got hit by the bus. The ball went through the basket with 8 seconds remaining in the game. But as we all know the five second count doesn't begin until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in. I was aware that the new offense might try to delay here, but I'm not going to change how I administer the count just because the home team had used up all their timeouts and because there were only 8 seconds left in the game. I started counting at the exact same place I would've at any other point in the game.

-- I started the count when the clock was between 5 and 6 seconds left in the game. Yes, I had an eye on the ball and thrower-in and another on the clock. I would've had a violation, likely, with less than a second left in the game had it gotten that far. The bus arrived before that.

-- tomegun: I was angry, angrier than I've ever been on a court before or since. And yet, watching the video, I feel I'm about as composed as I could've possibly been, given the circumstances. I used to gesture with my hands and arms when talking, but I've really worked on not doing that and I'm happy that my hands, for the most part, stay by my sides.

-- I moved to a new town in 2008 and this game was in December of 2009 -- I drove separately. After the game, I went in the locker room, changed clothes quickly without showering, and left without saying a word. I was as close to the edge as I've ever been before or since.

-- My partner was not the senior official. Yes, he's older by about 8-10 years, but I was 40 at the time in my 23rd season of working high school basketball and at least 18 years since I started regularly working varsity games. Who the R was is irrelevant, really -- we always take turns with the duties and we decide at the school who the R will be on a given night.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how I could've handled that situation better. I've spent a lot of time thinking about that situation when I'm the senior guy working with a relatively new person. Even though I didn't fit that description, I never want to be someone who steps on a partner like this for *any* reason.

The aftermath is that the winning coach (the home team did not hit their last shot) was more appalled at our disagreement than the call (which, knowing the typical rural girls' coach -- he had no clue that the new lead couldn't make this call). He contacted the commissioner himself and the commissioner called me a few days later. I explained to the commissioner exactly what had happened and he, too, was more concerned about the appearance of us disagreeing on the court than with what that official did, although he knew enough that he couldn't believe that the lead would make such a call. I still work for that assignor -- but only 1-2 dates a year (my choice -- he only has one school less than an hour from my house).

I deleted the original thread because one poster decided to come onto the thread and use it as an excuse to blast me, for whatever reason. BTW, I never said this was a terribly well-officiated game. It was a sloppy, foul-ridden game with the score in the low 30s. I think it's hard for any crew to look good in a game like this.

I really don't want to relive this over and over every couple of seasons, but if anyone has any questions, go ahead. Or PM me. I refuse to deal with personalities. On the other hand, film don't lie.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

This is why I like a regular partner. We have an understanding of whose responsibility it is when situations arise and we don't have clusters like this happen.

Having a regular partner does not eliminate these problems or create them. I have worked in both situations and have seen problems in both situations. For one having a regular partner you often will not go against that partner when needed. Having different partners that are hired by a person that put you together for a reason, the assignor might know who is the stronger official and puts you there accordingly.

This situation was more about the official over stepping his responsibility and not willing to come off of the mess he made. Heck the fact he made the call and went to the table is telling that he knows he was ultimately in the wrong if he had to do that much explaining. If he made the call and was confident in his decision, he would have just made the call and walked away. He looked disheveled in how he was acting.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Having a regular partner does not eliminate these problems or create them. I have worked in both situations and have seen problems in both situations. For one having a regular partner you often will not go against that partner when needed. Having different partners that are hired by a person that put you together for a reason, the assignor might know who is the stronger official and puts you there accordingly.

This situation was more about the official over stepping his responsibility and not willing to come off of the mess he made. Heck the fact he made the call and went to the table is telling that he knows he was ultimately in the wrong if he had to do that much explaining. If he made the call and was confident in his decision, he would have just made the call and walked away. He looked disheveled in how he was acting.

Peace

I've worked with the same partner for 10 years. This would never happen in one of our games. Simply put, we both know that this doesn't belong to the new lead in any way.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I've worked with the same partner for 10 years. This would never happen in one of our games. Simply put, we both know that this doesn't belong to the new lead in any way.

I used to work with the same partner or partners for the first 3 to 4 years of my career. I went another 8 years or so not working with a partner and literally working with a different person just about every single game (when I moved to the Chicago area). Then I went back to working a lot of games with two guys that helped mentor me for about 5 years. Then I have gone back to not having a partner and this or anything like this has never happened to me in any basketball game.

This to me was about the individual, not what the rest of us are used to.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I've worked with the same partner for 10 years. This would never happen in one of our games. Simply put, we both know that this doesn't belong to the new lead in any way.

Working with the same partner doesn't eliminate such occurrences. This is simply a case of an official f'ing up and not backing down in the aftermath.

I like working with multiple partners b/c it gives me different perspectives. If I were to work with the same partner all the time I feel like we would get too comfortable with bad habits. Working with new partners, I'm more likely to have someone ask, "hey, why are you doing that?"

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Rich

Yes, I'm the new trail. I could easily have deleted this thread ...

A tip of the cap to you for allowing this to be re-hashed over and over...also for not strangling "that guy" after the game.

It's actually a great teaching tool.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Working with new partners, I'm more likely to have someone ask, "hey, why are you doing that?"

For you to be open to that kind of peer critique is laudable. In fact, for a whole association or assigning pool to be nurtured to have that kinda attitude would really be a benefit. Self-inviting peer critique is an asset towards sure improvement.