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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 07:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The forty-five seconds I'm referring to is the forty-five seconds before the warning horn. Three substitutes from Team A enter, while four substitutes from Team B enter, all at different times within the forty-five second period; I would call that a lengthy substitution process.

But the topic is academic because it's after a timeout.
No, that's a timeout...you only complicate things for younger officials when you introduce such thinking.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 08:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Some around here insist that, since team B is playing with only four players, they'd just let it play out; after all, why penalize a team that is, by playing only four players, penalizing themselves--that's the rationalization.
I think that should be the rule -- if you resume play with 4 (whether after a TO or a substitution), then play with 4 until the next opportunity to substitute. Or, treat it like an injury in that play is stopped after the "injured player's team" gets the ball.

Last edited by bob jenkins; Fri Sep 05, 2014 at 08:35am.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 10:53am
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Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If B5 doesn't return, there is no penalty.
I deem that incorrect by virtue of the PENALTY stated at the end of 10-1: "(Art.3,4,5,8,9,10) Penalized when they occur."
Occurance would be whether B5 entered or not, given the wording of the rule.
Right?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 11:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
I deem that incorrect by virtue of the PENALTY stated at the end of 10-1: "(Art.3,4,5,8,9,10) Penalized when they occur."
Occurance would be whether B5 entered or not, given the wording of the rule.
Right?
A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time......


If B5 does not enter the court, he isn't a player. So the 4 on the court in this case are all the players.

I'm with Camron here.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 11:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
I deem that incorrect by virtue of the PENALTY stated at the end of 10-1: "(Art.3,4,5,8,9,10) Penalized when they occur."
Occurance would be whether B5 entered or not, given the wording of the rule.
Right?
The "when they occur" is when the 5th "player" returns at a later time, not when the 4 players enter without the 4th. If only 4 return, all that did so did return at the same time.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 12:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time......


If B5 does not enter the court, he isn't a player. So the 4 on the court in this case are all the players.

I'm with Camron here.
What's the intent of the rule?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 12:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
What's the intent of the rule?
The intent is not to prevent them from playing with 4, there's already a rule for that. The intent is to prevent deceit, IMO.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 01:27pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
The intent is not to prevent them from playing with 4, there's already a rule for that. The intent is to prevent deceit, IMO.
Is there some other rule that prevents them from playing with 4 specifically after a timeout or intermission other than 10-1-9?
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Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 02:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Is there some other rule that prevents them from playing with 4 specifically after a timeout or intermission other than 10-1-9?
No, just the rule that says they have to play with 5 if they're available.
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Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 02:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
No, just the rule that says they have to play with 5 if they're available.
I see that point based on 3-1, in regards to which 3.1.1 dictates: "Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available."

Therefore, is it not a logical, sound application of this same rule that, for instance, if a team is caught playing with only four players after a timeout or intermission, that they be then assessed a team technical if/when it is detected that they failed "...to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission"? Especially when that's what 10-1-9 actually says?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 03:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
I see that point based on 3-1, in regards to which 3.1.1 dictates: "Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available."

Therefore, is it not a logical, sound application of this same rule that, for instance, if a team is caught playing with only four players after a timeout or intermission, that they be then assessed a team technical if/when it is detected that they failed "...to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission"? Especially when that's what 10-1-9 actually says?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 03:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Is there some other rule that prevents them from playing with 4 specifically after a timeout or intermission other than 10-1-9?
"My team is on the floor."
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 03:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
No, that's a timeout...you only complicate things for younger officials when you introduce such thinking.
Thus my statement (twice, now three times) about my post about a lengthy substitution being academic (not practical, realistic, or directly useful).

I will agree that I complicated matters for younger officials before I read PG_Ref's great post, and citation, but so did BadNewsRef by continuing the discussion when it was, after all, academic.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 04:11pm
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Players, Bench Personnel, Team Members ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time.
Sounds good, but what defines the court?

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)?

I know that all team members are considered bench personnel during intermissions. This rule becomes important when deciding to charge, or not to charge, a coach with an indirect technical foul for technical fouls on players, or on bench personnel, during a timeout, or an intermission. Let's not treat this too casually, it's important, so let's try to figure it out.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Sep 06, 2014 at 07:39am.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 04:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Sounds good, but what defines the court?

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)?

I know that all team members are considered bench personnel during intermissions. This rule becomes important when deciding to charge, or not to charge, a coach with an indirect technical foul for technical fouls on players, or on bench personnel, during a timeout, or an intermission. Let's not treat this too casually, it's important, so let's try to figure it out.
A player who was a player before the timeout remains a player during a timeout, I believe...
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