Frontcourt Corner Coverage

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

There's one in the NCAA-M's mechanics manual under section 7. Page 36-37.



1) The mechanics manual tells Lead to watch the rebounding action so Lead wouldn't be looking there anyway. Lead has to watch the rebounding action instead of the shooter in the corner because he needs to see the rebounding play start, develop, and finish in order to call/no-call it correctly. Perhaps if the manual said that the Trail covers rebounding action while the Lead takes the corner three (à la NBA and I presume, NCAA-W) then that's one thing. Under the current NCAA-M and NFHS mechanics if the Lead is watching the corner shot then the Trail is as well. That leaves no one watching strong-side rebounding. What's more valuable -- having 4 eyes on a corner three (Trail having one side of the play, Lead having the other), or 2 eyes on the corner shot and 2 on the resulting rebounding action??

2) Maybe some fans or coaches will think Lead incompetent but officials and more importantly supervisors who know better will know that Lead shouldn't be looking there. Did Art Hyland fault Mike Stuart for missing the foul in the UCONN game? No, that was Trail's play. Kevin Ollie was yelling at the wrong guy from the start.

All fine, but you didn't answer my question: "Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies?"

And there is difference between Mike Stuart (who, by the way, works for Curtis Shaw; and none of us know what Shaw said to Stuart in the phone call that night) and those of us trying to get more officiating opportunities via camps. If you are in a camp and tell an observer that you didn't call the foul b/c your primary is rebounding action, the impression you leave will not be very positive.

Originally Posted by hoopsaddict

The point is being advocated that the lead not solely watch the shot taken from the corner but more so position themselves in a spot where they can see within their peripheral vision the shot taken from the corner as well as their primary coverage area (including rebounding responsibilities as you suggest).

Going wide with the basketball in an effort to mirror the ball allows the official to expand their field of vision to assist on this play. If the official does not mirror the ball and stays near the close-down position they won't be able to watch both areas.

There is no way an official can see both rebounding action in the paint and the 3 point shooter in the corner at the same time without being outside the 3 point line along the end line. And that is too wide as Lead. Even NCAA-W or NBA refs don't go out that far -- they turn their body to face one or the other, but are never reffing both. That's why Trail is instructed to watch the rebounding action on those types of plays.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

All fine, but you didn't answer my question: "Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies?"

I've never seen the pick play you describe in the corner (too easy to trap), they usually do this on the wing where Trail has a good look and Lead has dual coverage. Even if the play you describe happens I think the mechanics book is pretty clear -- Trail has every shot in the corner. If they want to see the play I guess they have to close down quite a bit and even step off the court.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And there is difference between Mike Stuart (who, by the way, works for Curtis Shaw

I thought the UCONN-Louisville game used Big East refs (Teddy V, Stuart, and Brian O'Connell), isn't Curtis Shaw the Big 12 coordinator?

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If you are in a camp and tell an observer that you didn't call the foul b/c your primary is rebounding action, the impression you leave will not be very positive.

I wouldn't say that, because I wouldn't get criticized for something out of my area. Even if a clinician reamed me for not looking at the corner I wouldn't say that.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I wouldn't say that, because I wouldn't get criticized for something out of my area. Even if a clinician reamed me for not looking at the corner I wouldn't say that.

You haven't been to enough camps then. That's a common question: "Did you see the foul?" / "Yes" / "Then WTF didn't you call it"

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You haven't been to enough camps then. That's a common question: "Did you see the foul?" / "Yes" / "Then WTF didn't you call it"

But I wouldn't see the foul because I wouldn't be watching there. It's not my area. If I peek there then I miss something during the rebound.

"Did you see the foul" / "No." / "Why not?" / "I was watching the rebound play."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

But I wouldn't see the foul because I wouldn't be watching there. It's not my area. If I peek there then I miss something during the rebound.

"Did you see the foul" / "No." / "Why not?" / "I was watching the rebound play."

Confernce Supervisor (who stopped by your court to specifically watch you): "What rebound? The shooter got hit and the ball hit the side of the backboard. Now the coach is rightfully pissed because I have 1 official who missed a foul in his primary, and a 2nd official who didn't call the foul that happened 3 ft away from him. Here's some advise if you want to move to the next level: open up and be able to ref your primary as well as help your partner on ball when play moves away from him and towards you."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AremRed

But I wouldn't see the foul because I wouldn't be watching there. It's not my area. If I peek there then I miss something during the rebound.

"Did you see the foul" / "No." / "Why not?" / "I was watching the rebound play."

The phrase "it's not my area" isn't one I'm interested in hearing as a supervisor. As a coach, I'm even less inclined to listen to it.

I've been at camps where I was the guy saving the crew. The clinician is still pissed, but mainly because the primary didn't put a whistle on it and he's questioning his judgment / ability.

I've also passed on something when I didn't feel I had the best look. Best response there is to be silent and hope you don't get yelled at, too. Not the best position to be in.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Rich

The phrase "it's not my area" isn't one I'm interested in hearing as a supervisor. As a coach, I'm even less inclined to listen to it.

On the play we are discussing here, I agree this would be a poor explanation. However, your second sentence makes me laugh. I don't have any problem saying you are asking the wrong guy or worse when a dumbass coach asks me about a play outside of the top of the key when I am the L in a 3 man game. Truthfully, how the **** would I know what is happening out there.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnny d

On the play we are discussing here, I agree this would be a poor explanation. However, your second sentence makes me laugh. I don't have any problem saying you are asking the wrong guy or worse when a dumbass coach asks me about a play outside of the top of the key when I am the L in a 3 man game. Truthfully, how the **** would I know what is happening out there.

It's much different to say, "I was looking elsewhere" than "That's not my area."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I wouldn't say that, because I wouldn't get criticized for something out of my area. Even if a clinician reamed me for not looking at the corner I wouldn't say that.

BNR is right.

I went to camp years ago when Dale Kelley was running multiple camps (Curtis Shaw's predecessor). I was in Denton, Texas and we had a very close game in the second half. Well the very last play there was s situation on the other side of the lane from me where I was the C. A lot of contact, but I could not tell for sure if the contact was illegal, so I called nothing. My partners passed on the contact as well.

Well when the game was over, the clinicians ripped on all of us. I was even the least likely guy to make the call and I got ripped as well. And when I was asked about the play, all I could say, "I did not see the entire play." The clinician shook his head as to to tell me I screwed up. I took it and learned a lesson.

No, you have not been to enough camps.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I went to camp years ago when Dale Kelley was running multiple camps (Curtis Shaw's predecessor). I was in Denton, Texas and we had a very close game in the second half. Well the very last play there was s situation on the other side of the lane from me where I was the C. A lot of contact, but I could not tell for sure if the contact was illegal, so I called nothing. My partners passed on the contact as well.

Well when the game was over, the clinicians ripped on all of us. I was even the least likely guy to make the call and I got ripped as well. And when I was asked about the play, all I could say, "I did not see the entire play." The clinician shook his head as to to tell me I screwed up. I took it and learned a lesson.

If you made a call would you have been guessing? Cuz I don't think you can guess on a game-deciding or (although I hate the term) "crew-saving" call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

If you made a call would you have been guessing? Cuz I don't think you can guess on a game-deciding or (although I hate the term) "crew-saving" call.

Not necessarily. I did see the play but was in camp thinking I should leave it up to my partners. I just did not pull the trigger. And I could not do what you suggest, "I was not watching that, I was watching other action."

I admitted to see the play, I just did not have the best angle and I wanted to give my partners a shot to call the play.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not necessarily. I did see the play but was in camp thinking I should leave it up to my partners. I just did not pull the trigger. And I could not do what you suggest, "I was not watching that, I was watching other action."

I admitted to see the play, I just did not have the best angle and I wanted to give my partners a shot to call the play.

I gotcha. I think there's a difference though between your play and peeking in the corner as Lead. Even if you are really wide as Lead you will need to turn your head/body to look in the corner. When I work Lead that corner is usually 90 degrees to my right or left. My back is to that play. In your play you have the entire frontcourt in your peripheral vision, and I am assuming that you probably had the worst look at the play. There is a reason you passed on the play -- you knew or assumed Lead and Trail had better looks than you and passed on the play for a reason and you decided to trust their judgement.

Your play reminds me of the Kansas-Iowa State charge play two years ago. That play was Lead and C's primary/dual coverage area, either one could have gotten it. Trail could have come to get it, but he was really far away. He passed, and in the resulting suspension/game reduction of the two covering officials, Trail was passed-over for any discipline. He could have come in to "save the crew" but the resulting blame was not on him.

[deecee]

AremRed, why are you so concerned about "rebound action". You first need a missed shot for "rebound action". Officiate what is happening at the time it's happening.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Even if you are really wide as Lead you will need to turn your head/body to look in the corner. When I work Lead that corner is usually 90 degrees to my right or left. My back is to that play.

I would suggest you put yourself at a 45 degree angle, rather than a 90 degree angle. The bold and underlined part should never happen. This has been advocated against at every college camp I have attended. I will take a peek at the shooter in the corner. I am giving up that look once the ball has left his hand cleanly. That still gives me plenty of time to get any strong side rebound action. I will miss any contact on the shooter after the ball is gone and before he lands, but I will protect him until the ball is released. After that, I will rely on the T to get the other stuff. I have to agree with BNR and JRut, two college officials, on this play. All supervisors and clinicians are going to want you to get the contact on the shooter before the rebounding play. JRut and I have gone to a camp here in Chicago run by a D1 official who has worked the championship game multiple times. Every year he stresses the importance of the L helping the T protect the shooter deep in the corner.