Frontcourt Corner Coverage

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Depends on how your partners feel about you calling in their primary.

Whenever I see someone post or say something about "who's watching your primary if you're looking there" or something similar, it lets me know exactly what kind of official that person is -- someone who doesn't care if the crew suffers as long as that person can say he had his primary covered.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Rich

Whenever I see someone post or say something about "who's watching your primary if you're looking there" or something similar, it lets me know exactly what kind of official that person is -- someone who doesn't care if the crew suffers as long as that person can say he had his primary covered.

The difference being one official who is an avid ballwatcher who's all over that shot from the corner while elbows are flying unabated underneath and the better official who maintains his primary surveillance but also maintains situational awareness and isn't fixated so much on his PCA that he's unaware of the wider view should something need to be called for the sake of the crew and the game. I think.

Originally Posted by Rich

Whenever I see someone post or say something about "who's watching your primary if you're looking there" or something similar, it lets me know exactly what kind of official that person is -- someone who doesn't care if the crew suffers as long as that person can say he had his primary covered.

Or PCAs are there for a reason and we should trust that our partners are getting what needs to be gotten (absent a game-deciding call).

That said, the philosophy is different in NCAA-M vs. high school.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Or PCAs are there for a reason and we should trust that our partners are getting what needs to be gotten (absent a game-deciding call).

That said, the philosophy is different in NCAA-M vs. high school.

Secondary coverage areas are there too for a reason and we should also expect that sh!t gets missed by our partners from time to time and they may need a second set of eyes on specific action.

That said, the philosophy is the same everywhere. Ref the game!

Originally Posted by deecee

Secondary coverage areas are there too for a reason and we should also expect that sh!t gets missed by our partners from time to time and they may need a second set of eyes on specific action.

I've never seen a secondary coverage area map that includes the corner as Lead. Can you provide one?

[hoopsaddict]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I've never seen a secondary coverage area map that includes the corner as Lead. Can you provide one?

NFHS Officials Manual 3.3.4 A (2):
If a shot is taken near an area where coverage intersects, the secondary official should be prepared to assist.

and

3.4.2 A (2):
Typically an official should call fouls in his/her PCA, but any foul observed should be called.

As a note, the lead mirroring the basketball to assist with the trail for on-ball action in the corner can also better officiate the drive to the basket that occurs from this area. Allowing the lead to see the entire play through its start, develop and finish phases.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I've never seen a secondary coverage area map that includes the corner as Lead. Can you provide one?

I've never seen a secondary coverage area diagram at all.

That said, if you are the Lead, and you have mirrored the ball out to the 3-point line, and you have nothing going on in the post, you'll look pretty incompetent if you don't call an obvious foul on that 3-point shot that happens 3 feet away from you, if the Trail misses it for whatever reason.

Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies.

As one of my supervisors likes to say, "sometimes you just gotta referee."

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I've never seen a secondary coverage area diagram at all.

There's one in the NCAA-M's mechanics manual under section 7. Page 36-37.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That said, if you are the Lead, and you have mirrored the ball out to the 3-point line, and you have nothing going on in the post, you'll look pretty incompetent if you don't call an obvious foul on that 3-point shot that happens 3 feet away from you, if the Trail misses it for whatever reason.

1) The mechanics manual tells Lead to watch the rebounding action so Lead wouldn't be looking there anyway. Lead has to watch the rebounding action instead of the shooter in the corner because he needs to see the rebounding play start, develop, and finish in order to call/no-call it correctly. Perhaps if the manual said that the Trail covers rebounding action while the Lead takes the corner three (à la NBA and I presume, NCAA-W) then that's one thing. Under the current NCAA-M and NFHS mechanics if the Lead is watching the corner shot then the Trail is as well. That leaves no one watching strong-side rebounding. What's more valuable -- having 4 eyes on a corner three (Trail having one side of the play, Lead having the other), or 2 eyes on the corner shot and 2 on the resulting rebounding action??

2) Maybe some fans or coaches will think Lead incompetent but officials and more importantly supervisors who know better will know that Lead shouldn't be looking there. Did Art Hyland fault Mike Stuart for missing the foul in the UCONN game? No, that was Trail's play. Kevin Ollie was yelling at the wrong guy from the start.

[hoopsaddict]

Originally Posted by AremRed

There's one in the NCAA-M's mechanics manual under section 7. Page 36-37.



1) The mechanics manual tells Lead to watch the rebounding action so Lead wouldn't be looking there anyway. Lead has to watch the rebounding action instead of the shooter in the corner because he needs to see the rebounding play start, develop, and finish in order to call/no-call it correctly. Perhaps if the manual said that the Trail covers rebounding action while the Lead takes the corner three (à la NBA and I presume, NCAA-W) then that's one thing. Under the current NCAA-M and NFHS mechanics if the Lead is watching the corner shot then the Trail is as well. That leaves no one watching strong-side rebounding. What's more valuable -- having 4 eyes on a corner three (Trail having one side of the play, Lead having the other), or 2 eyes on the corner shot and 2 on the resulting rebounding action??

2) Maybe some fans or coaches will think Lead incompetent but officials and more importantly supervisors who know better will know that Lead shouldn't be looking there. Did Art Hyland fault Mike Stuart for missing the foul in the UCONN game? No, that was Trail's play. Kevin Ollie was yelling at the wrong guy from the start.

The point is being advocated that the lead not solely watch the shot taken from the corner but more so position themselves in a spot where they can see within their peripheral vision the shot taken from the corner as well as their primary coverage area (including rebounding responsibilities as you suggest).

Going wide with the basketball in an effort to mirror the ball allows the official to expand their field of vision to assist on this play. If the official does not mirror the ball and stays near the close-down position they won't be able to watch both areas.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

There's one in the NCAA-M's mechanics manual under section 7. Page 36-37.



1) The mechanics manual tells Lead to watch the rebounding action so Lead wouldn't be looking there anyway. Lead has to watch the rebounding action instead of the shooter in the corner because he needs to see the rebounding play start, develop, and finish in order to call/no-call it correctly. Perhaps if the manual said that the Trail covers rebounding action while the Lead takes the corner three (à la NBA and I presume, NCAA-W) then that's one thing. Under the current NCAA-M and NFHS mechanics if the Lead is watching the corner shot then the Trail is as well. That leaves no one watching strong-side rebounding. What's more valuable -- having 4 eyes on a corner three (Trail having one side of the play, Lead having the other), or 2 eyes on the corner shot and 2 on the resulting rebounding action??

2) Maybe some fans or coaches will think Lead incompetent but officials and more importantly supervisors who know better will know that Lead shouldn't be looking there. Did Art Hyland fault Mike Stuart for missing the foul in the UCONN game? No, that was Trail's play. Kevin Ollie was yelling at the wrong guy from the start.

All fine, but you didn't answer my question: "Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies?"

And there is difference between Mike Stuart (who, by the way, works for Curtis Shaw; and none of us know what Shaw said to Stuart in the phone call that night) and those of us trying to get more officiating opportunities via camps. If you are in a camp and tell an observer that you didn't call the foul b/c your primary is rebounding action, the impression you leave will not be very positive.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Say the 6' 8" post player comes out the sideline and sets a pick followed by quick 3-point shot on the baseline side of pick. Who should be helping the Trail if he gets blocked out by bodies.

This is the thought I had when reading the OP. The double-team on the wing probably blocked the Trail's view of the shooter in the corner.
An excellent official considers what his partners can and cannot see before making a call out of his PCA.
That is the whole reason that a secondary whistle should be late. "That's the C's call. Wait, maybe Jack can't see it. I have to call this." Tweet

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the thought I had when reading the OP. The double-team on the wing probably blocked the Trail's view of the shooter in the corner.
An excellent official considers what his partners can and cannot see before making a call out of his PCA.
That is the whole reason that a secondary whistle should be late. "That's the C's call. Wait, maybe Jack can't see it. I have to call this." Tweet

And I saw the play in the OP. I have no idea why the Trail didn't call it, other than he was usually near the division line in the trail and probably bailed on the play. It was definitely a foul, and APG did have patient whistle. The team on offense wasn't running any plays through the low-post all game. APG was out wide mirroring the post and the foul happened no more than 3' from him.

I was part of the locker room discussion afterwards. The folks who didn't like the call never said it wasn't a foul, just that the Lead shouldn't be looking out there. When I'm the Lead out that wide and a 3 goes up from the corner, I'm peeking at the shooter also. Doesn't take but a split second.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich

Whenever I see someone post or say something about "who's watching your primary if you're looking there" or something similar, it lets me know exactly what kind of official that person is -- someone who doesn't care if the crew suffers as long as that person can say he had his primary covered.

Could be a person who is sick & tired of partners ball-watching and overriding a judgment by the primary official that a play is not a foul by putting a whistle on it. Also, the person could be fed up with having to cover and catch something off-ball for the crew in a partner's primary because that person is wrongly focused where the ball is.