Frontcourt Corner Coverage

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the thought I had when reading the OP. The double-team on the wing probably blocked the Trail's view of the shooter in the corner.
An excellent official considers what his partners can and cannot see before making a call out of his PCA.
That is the whole reason that a secondary whistle should be late. "That's the C's call. Wait, maybe Jack can't see it. I have to call this." Tweet

And I saw the play in the OP. I have no idea why the Trail didn't call it, other than he was usually near the division line in the trail and probably bailed on the play. It was definitely a foul, and APG did have patient whistle. The team on offense wasn't running any plays through the low-post all game. APG was out wide mirroring the post and the foul happened no more than 3' from him.

I was part of the locker room discussion afterwards. The folks who didn't like the call never said it wasn't a foul, just that the Lead shouldn't be looking out there. When I'm the Lead out that wide and a 3 goes up from the corner, I'm peeking at the shooter also. Doesn't take but a split second.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

But I wouldn't see the foul because I wouldn't be watching there. It's not my area. If I peek there then I miss something during the rebound.

"Did you see the foul" / "No." / "Why not?" / "I was watching the rebound play."

Confernce Supervisor (who stopped by your court to specifically watch you): "What rebound? The shooter got hit and the ball hit the side of the backboard. Now the coach is rightfully pissed because I have 1 official who missed a foul in his primary, and a 2nd official who didn't call the foul that happened 3 ft away from him. Here's some advise if you want to move to the next level: open up and be able to ref your primary as well as help your partner on ball when play moves away from him and towards you."

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I went to camp years ago when Dale Kelley was running multiple camps (Curtis Shaw's predecessor). I was in Denton, Texas and we had a very close game in the second half. Well the very last play there was s situation on the other side of the lane from me where I was the C. A lot of contact, but I could not tell for sure if the contact was illegal, so I called nothing. My partners passed on the contact as well.

Well when the game was over, the clinicians ripped on all of us. I was even the least likely guy to make the call and I got ripped as well. And when I was asked about the play, all I could say, "I did not see the entire play." The clinician shook his head as to to tell me I screwed up. I took it and learned a lesson.

If you made a call would you have been guessing? Cuz I don't think you can guess on a game-deciding or (although I hate the term) "crew-saving" call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

If you made a call would you have been guessing? Cuz I don't think you can guess on a game-deciding or (although I hate the term) "crew-saving" call.

Not necessarily. I did see the play but was in camp thinking I should leave it up to my partners. I just did not pull the trigger. And I could not do what you suggest, "I was not watching that, I was watching other action."

I admitted to see the play, I just did not have the best angle and I wanted to give my partners a shot to call the play.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not necessarily. I did see the play but was in camp thinking I should leave it up to my partners. I just did not pull the trigger. And I could not do what you suggest, "I was not watching that, I was watching other action."

I admitted to see the play, I just did not have the best angle and I wanted to give my partners a shot to call the play.

I gotcha. I think there's a difference though between your play and peeking in the corner as Lead. Even if you are really wide as Lead you will need to turn your head/body to look in the corner. When I work Lead that corner is usually 90 degrees to my right or left. My back is to that play. In your play you have the entire frontcourt in your peripheral vision, and I am assuming that you probably had the worst look at the play. There is a reason you passed on the play -- you knew or assumed Lead and Trail had better looks than you and passed on the play for a reason and you decided to trust their judgement.

Your play reminds me of the Kansas-Iowa State charge play two years ago. That play was Lead and C's primary/dual coverage area, either one could have gotten it. Trail could have come to get it, but he was really far away. He passed, and in the resulting suspension/game reduction of the two covering officials, Trail was passed-over for any discipline. He could have come in to "save the crew" but the resulting blame was not on him.

[deecee]

AremRed, why are you so concerned about "rebound action". You first need a missed shot for "rebound action". Officiate what is happening at the time it's happening.

Originally Posted by deecee

AremRed, why are you so concerned about "rebound action". You first need a missed shot for "rebound action". Officiate what is happening at the time it's happening.

As Lead why should you be looking anywhere else? The mechanics manual is written to put officials in the best position to officiate plays in their primary areas. Rebounding plays often start before any shot is taken....bodies are banging trying to secure better position. Why would you ever take your eyes off of that to officiate someone else's play? You need to identify the defenders, the small/big matchups, who is displacing who first, etc. and doing that requires focusing on the players in your area as Lead from the start of the action, during the development of the action, through the finishing of the play.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

The mechanics manual is....

...a guide.

And bodies are not always banging around in the post. Some teams spread the court. Same teams put their post players at the free throw line, etc.

Good officials are expected to referee the particular game they are in and not be paralyzed by a mechanics guide.

So if there is a trap on the sideline below the free throw line extended, and only open angle is from your endline, are you going to come help officiate the play or are you going to continue looking at the post?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Even if you are really wide as Lead you will need to turn your head/body to look in the corner. When I work Lead that corner is usually 90 degrees to my right or left. My back is to that play.

I would suggest you put yourself at a 45 degree angle, rather than a 90 degree angle. The bold and underlined part should never happen. This has been advocated against at every college camp I have attended. I will take a peek at the shooter in the corner. I am giving up that look once the ball has left his hand cleanly. That still gives me plenty of time to get any strong side rebound action. I will miss any contact on the shooter after the ball is gone and before he lands, but I will protect him until the ball is released. After that, I will rely on the T to get the other stuff. I have to agree with BNR and JRut, two college officials, on this play. All supervisors and clinicians are going to want you to get the contact on the shooter before the rebounding play. JRut and I have gone to a camp here in Chicago run by a D1 official who has worked the championship game multiple times. Every year he stresses the importance of the L helping the T protect the shooter deep in the corner.

Originally Posted by johnny d

I would suggest you put yourself at a 45 degree angle, rather than a 90 degree angle. The bold and underlined part should never happen. This has been advocated against at every college camp I have attended. I will take a peek at the shooter in the corner. I am giving up that look once the ball has left his hand cleanly. That still gives me plenty of time to get any strong side rebound action. I will miss any contact on the shooter after the ball is gone and before he lands, but I will protect him until the ball is released. After that, I will rely on the T to get the other stuff. I have to agree with BNR and JRut, two college officials, on this play. All supervisors and clinicians are going to want you to get the contact on the shooter before the rebounding play. JRut and I have gone to a camp here in Chicago run by a D1 official who has worked the championship game multiple times. Every year he stresses the importance of the L helping the T protect the shooter deep in the corner.

I debated using the word back and should have left it out. It's more my shoulder/side. If I am halfway between close down and the 3 point line and I am 45 degrees to each play then I am facing parallel the endline. If the corner is 90 degrees to my right, then I am primarily facing the low block, which is what I see every official on tv doing.

I wish the mechanics manual would come out and explicitly state that the Lead can peek at the corner three.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I debated using the word back and should have left it out. It's more my shoulder/side. If I am halfway between close down and the 3 point line and I am 45 degrees to each play then I am facing parallel the endline. If the corner is 90 degrees to my right, then I am primarily facing the low block, which is what I see every official on tv doing.

I wish the mechanics manual would come out and explicitly state that the Lead can peek at the corner three.

If you're only halfway from closedown to the 3-point line when the ball is outside the 3-point line, you're probably too close to the lane.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you're only halfway from closedown to the 3-point line when the ball is outside the 3-point line, you're probably too close to the lane.

That's what I was thinking as this thread has been going on, that Arem must not be going out far enough when the ball is wide on the strong side

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That's what I was thinking as this thread has been going on, that Arem must not be going out far enough when the ball is wide on the strong side

How could he, the mechanics manual doesn't allow him. Plus all the rebounding action he would miss if he ventures to far away.

BTW, is this the same mechanics manuals that the coaches and players use to diagram their plays around?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Rebounding plays often start before any shot is taken....

100% pure baloney. Rebounding, by definition, is what happens AFTER a shot is missed. A shot is needed for any "rebounding" plays to begin. By your logic I can say that scoring plays start in practice. Does that mean we need to show up 24 hours before the game to get in position during a teams practice?

Stop thinking, just officiate the action going on at the moment, you sound like you focus on a grain of sand. Our job is to police the beach.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

100% pure baloney. Rebounding, by definition, is what happens AFTER a shot is missed. A shot is needed for any "rebounding" plays to begin. By your logic I can say that scoring plays start in practice. Does that mean we need to show up 24 hours before the game to get in position during a teams practice?

Stop thinking, just officiate the action going on at the moment, you sound like you focus on a grain of sand. Our job is to police the beach.

I Agree with AremRed, here. The jockeying to be in position for a rebound does sometimes start before the shot it taken....but covering the immediate play is always the most important, not the potential next play.