Inadvertant horn

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

It may not be the same everywhere, but here in Ohio we're told not to blow our whistles when the horn goes off to end a period. However, just because we don't blow our whistles, that doesn't mean a team can score after the horn.

So while I agree with the interpretation of the rule book, in actuality that doesn't seem to be true, and therefore those points can indeed be taken away.

You may not fully understand your instruction. When there is no try in flight at the expiration of time, then it is true that no whistle is necessary as the ball becomes dead upon the sounding of the horn. However when there is a try in flight as time expires, then the ball remains live until the try ends and at that point a whistle should be blown to signify the end of the quarter and that the ball is now dead.
Otherwise what the argument you are making is illogical. You are contending that the horn makes the ball dead in your area, but then stating that the officials can play on anyway and then come back and cancel the goal.
If any horn makes the ball dead in your state, then the play ends immediately and no goal can be scored. Btw that is counter to both the text of the NFHS Case Book and Official's Manual.

[Indianaref]

Interesting that this topic has just been brought up. Indiana's 3A girl's state final had a situation towards the end of game that had an inadvertent horn during a free throw. The lead official whistle the ball dead while the throw is in the air. He waived off the shot, which I thought at the time was something he didn't have the rules backing for. Here is the link, scroll to 1:41:53 to see the situation.

2014 IHSAA Girls Basketball 3A State Championship | Indiana High School Athletic Association Videos | iHigh.com

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Interesting that this topic has just been brought up. Indiana's 3A girl's state final had a situation towards the end of game that had an inadvertent horn during a free throw. The lead official whistle the ball dead while the throw is in the air. He waived off the shot, which I thought at the time was something he didn't have the rules backing for. Here is the link, scroll to 1:41:53 to see the situation.

2014 IHSAA Girls Basketball 3A State Championship | Indiana High School Athletic Association Videos | iHigh.com

If the ball is already in flight, he doesn't have rules support to cancel the try! In that particular circumstance, even a whistle would not cancel the try because it is already in flight.
He can stop it before the release.

Here is the NFHS Case Book play providing this principle:

6.7.5 SITUATION:
A1 is at the free-throw line for the second of two attempts. After the ball is at A1's disposal, B1 commits a lane violation. The administering official inadvertently sounds his/her whistle: (a) before A1 starts the free-throw motion; (b) after the ball has been released; or (c) during A1's motion but before release of the ball.

RULING: Whether or not the whistle was sounded inadvertently it has the same result. In (a) and (c), the ball becomes dead immediately. In (b), the whistle does not cause the ball to become dead until the free throw ends. Because B1 violated, in all cases, a substitute throw is awarded if the free-throw attempt by A1 is unsuccessful. (4-20-3)

[Nevadaref]

Just watched the video clip of the Indiana game.
The ball was clearly in the shooter's hands when the horn sounded, but definitely in flight when an official blew his whistle.

This took place following a commercial break on the video, so my guess is that the table person programmed in the media time-out and the last horn was automatic and due to the media break. The officials simply didn't wait long enough for all of the programming to complete before resuming play. Thus the final horn came during the ensuing FT action.

Not a knock on the crew as this happens frequently with State tournament and other televised HS games because the officials are not used to the admin stuff that goes with these contests. There is an art to managing such "events" beyond what is normally done in working a routine HS contest.

PS this is one of two reasons that I don't like gyms in which the TOs are timed via the scoreboard.

[constable]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Interesting that this topic has just been brought up. Indiana's 3A girl's state final had a situation towards the end of game that had an inadvertent horn during a free throw. The lead official whistle the ball dead while the throw is in the air. He waived off the shot, which I thought at the time was something he didn't have the rules backing for. Here is the link, scroll to 1:41:53 to see the situation.

2014 IHSAA Girls Basketball 3A State Championship | Indiana High School Athletic Association Videos | iHigh.com

Is it normal in NFHS mechanics for the trail to be so high up on FT?

Originally Posted by constable

Is it normal in NFHS mechanics for the trail to be so high up on FT?

Yes, the C official is in perfect book position.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You may not fully understand your instruction. When there is no try in flight at the expiration of time, then it is true that no whistle is necessary as the ball becomes dead upon the sounding of the horn. However when there is a try in flight as time expires, then the ball remains live until the try ends and at that point a whistle should be blown to signify the end of the quarter and that the ball is now dead.
Otherwise what the argument you are making is illogical. You are contending that the horn makes the ball dead in your area, but then stating that the officials can play on anyway and then come back and cancel the goal.
If any horn makes the ball dead in your state, then the play ends immediately and no goal can be scored. Btw that is counter to both the text of the NFHS Case Book and Official's Manual.

Whether or not there is a ball in the air when the horn goes off is irrelevant to our use of whistles at the end of the game... we just don't do it. I understand that it may be against what the rule book or official's manual says, but it wouldn't be the first time we did things differently (see the use of the "hand behind the head" signal on charging fouls). However, I'll make sure that I'm not misunderstanding things.

Heck, I don't even remember why I brought that up, as it doesn't seem relevant to the OP. Speaking of which... If that happened to me I'd immediately blow my whistle, go to the table to find out why the horn went off and make sure it won't happen again, and then restart the game from the POI.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Whether or not there is a ball in the air when the horn goes off is irrelevant to our use of whistles at the end of the game... we just don't do it. I understand that it may be against what the rule book or official's manual says, but it wouldn't be the first time we did things differently (see the use of the "hand behind the head" signal on charging fouls). However, I'll make sure that I'm not misunderstanding things.

MTD is an Ohio guy, so I'm going to reply to this post and hope that we will hear from him on the mechanics used in that state.
I really don't understand how you indacate that the ball has become dead and the moment at which the quarter is over without sounding a whistle in situations in which time expires while a try is in flight. Live ball/dead matters in such instances.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Heck, I don't even remember why I brought that up, as it doesn't seem relevant to the OP. Speaking of which... If that happened to me I'd immediately blow my whistle, go to the table to find out why the horn went off and make sure it won't happen again, and then restart the game from the POI.

How many years have you been officiating at the HS level? I ask because you seem to react to certain things which happen or could happen in a game and want to do something which often isn't appropriate. Here is such an example. In many cases, an official should NOT immediately react to a horn by blowing the whistle: during scoring plays & inadvertent horns are two. Don't jump on a situation without proper thought first.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

MTD is an Ohio guy, so I'm going to reply to this post and hope that we will hear from him on the mechanics used in that state.
I really don't understand how you indacate that the ball has become dead and the moment at which the quarter is over without sounding a whistle in situations in which time expires while a try is in flight. Live ball/dead matters in such instances.

How many years have you been officiating at the HS level? I ask because you seem to react to certain things which happen or could happen in a game and want to do something which often isn't appropriate. Here is such an example. In many cases, an official should NOT immediately react to a horn by blowing the whistle: during scoring plays & inadvertent horns are two. Don't jump on a situation without proper thought first.

I'm talking about the situation in the original post, not making a blanket statement about inadvertent horns, and whether I would blow the whistle. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that I seem react to certain things which happen or could happen, but any advice is appreciated. If you have specific examples then that could help.

By the way, I just finished my 5th season as a certified official (not including work I've done in rec leagues in which certified officials were not necessary). And a couple of weeks ago I was invited to join a varsity crew who had a partner retire (not sure that means anything, but just excited about it and wanted to share).

[OKREF]

Ok, here is an update to what happened. I know one of the officials who worked the game, and talked to him. This is actually what happened.

There was a loose ball that looked like it went out of bounds. It was saved. There were subs at the table, and the clock operator, stopped the clock, and sounded the horn when nobody had a whistle, when the horn sounded all 10 players stopped. The player with the ball who had been dribbling, stopped dribbling and picked up the ball. His coached yelled keep going, and he then dribbled again and went and shot a layup.

So, now we have a double dribble to contend with. The officials got together and determined since everyone quit playing, they were going back to the spot when the horn sounded and resuming from there.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by OKREF

There was a loose ball that looked like it went out of bounds. It was saved. There were subs at the table, and the clock operator, stopped the clock, and sounded the horn when nobody had a whistle......

wow

[Nevadaref]

To BryanV21, those of us here will try to help with what we can.
Congrats to you on catching on with a crew.

Originally Posted by OKREF

Ok, here is an update to what happened. I know one of the officials who worked the game, and talked to him. This is actually what happened.

There was a loose ball that looked like it went out of bounds. It was saved. There were subs at the table, and the clock operator, stopped the clock, and sounded the horn when nobody had a whistle, when the horn sounded all 10 players stopped. The player with the ball who had been dribbling, stopped dribbling and picked up the ball. His coached yelled keep going, and he then dribbled again and went and shot a layup.

So, now we have a double dribble to contend with. The officials got together and determined since everyone quit playing, they were going back to the spot when the horn sounded and resuming from there.

Too bad. The crew decided not to stop play for an inadvertent horn. Ok, that's actually good. The kids stop and the ball handler ends his dribble. The crew should now have a whistle, consult with the table, and then resume at the POI.
Instead the crew allowed the player to have an illegal second dribble after which he scored. They failed to penalize this violation. It's now too late and is just a missed call. Yet now they stop play and decide to not only cancel the goal, but rewind to even prior to the illegal dribble!!! Yikes!

[JetMetFan]

What Nevada said. Now that we know the full story the crew really made a bad situation worse.