Inadvertant horn

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

The whistle should have been blown when it was apparent all of the players - and at the very least the players on defense - stopped.

However - and I'm basing this on a couple of case plays dealing with inadvertent whistles so feel free to argue - if no one blew their whistle the points should have been allowed. The sound of the horn doesn't cause the ball to become dead. NFHS 6-7-5 reads "The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when an official's whistle is blown." Since that didn't happen, score the goal.

It may not be the same everywhere, but here in Ohio we're told not to blow our whistles when the horn goes off to end a period. However, just because we don't blow our whistles, that doesn't mean a team can score after the horn.

So while I agree with the interpretation of the rule book, in actuality that doesn't seem to be true, and therefore those points can indeed be taken away.

[Rob1968]

NFHS Officials Manual2.4.9 Inadvertant Whistles/Horns:

"B. If the scorer's horn is sounded while the ball is live, or when it is about to become live, the official may ignore it or honor it. The horn has no effect, but the official's whistle shall cause the ball to become dead or to remain dead."

For many years, we taught that if the horn sounds while the ball is live, the officials should verbally acknowledge that it was a mistake, by stating, "Play on." In the event that a player commits a violation, for example, the ballhandler travels, obviously because of hearing the horn, that the officials should sound the whistle, verify the reason for the horn sounding, and re-start the game at the POI. In such cases, common sense should dictate the officials' actions.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

In the event that a player commits a violation, for example, the ballhandler travels, obviously because of hearing the horn, that the officials should sound the whistle, verify the reason for the horn sounding, and re-start the game at the POI. In such cases, common sense should dictate the officials' actions.

Common sense? Or Fundamental #16: The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)? Or both? Interesting. Very interesting. So, the player traveled while the ball was live, but we pretend that the ball was already dead, before the travel? Again. Interesting. Very interesting. Am I allowed to pretend that the game I worked a few nights ago was the first perfect game that I called in my career? I just love this pretend stuff. It's better than following the rulebook, or casebook. Of course 2-3 can get us out of a lot of "situations". It like a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card, a basketball official's best friend.

[bob jenkins]

I'd treat it like the "official announces 2 FTs when it's really 1-1".

If everyone keeps playing, let the play stand. If all stop except 1, kill it (even retroactively). In between, officiate.

So, in the OP, kill it (assuming the phrase "everyone just stops" is correct)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Common sense? Or Fundamental #16: The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)? Or both? Interesting. Very interesting. So, the player traveled while the ball was live, but we pretend that the ball was already dead, before the travel? Again. Interesting. Very interesting. Am I allowed to pretend that the game I worked a few nights ago was the first perfect game that I called in my career? I just love this pretend stuff. It's better than following the rulebook, or casebook. Of course 2-3 can get us out of a lot of "situations". It like a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card, a basketball official's best friend.

Billy, this fundamental is completely irrelevant to the situation. The fundamental applies to fouls, violations, and the end of a period. It does not apply to the horn going off, so please stop quoting it in this thread, as it bears no significance to the OP or any of the follow up posts.

Use 2-3 if you must, but the fundamental does not apply.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Billy, this fundamental is completely irrelevant to the situation.

I should have used the blue font in my second post.

Bottom line: Sometimes we just have to officiate with some common sense, and sometimes that common sense runs against the written rules. When that happens, and someone calls us out on it, a coach, an athletic director, or an assigner, rulebook, or casebook, in hand, we just have to explain our decision, and admit that we screwed the pooch. Officiating basketball ain't easy. We've all screwed the pooch at least once, and for most of us, it won't be the last time we've done it.

I had a state tournament Catholic middle school game this past weekend (a big deal for me). Player is getting ready to shoot the first of two free throws. I'm the trail. As he's preparing to shoot, the scorekeeper yells to me, loudly, "Was that foul on white eleven?". Figuring that this would distract the shooter, I put my hand up and called out, "Wait", to the players, intending to reset the free throw, without sounding my whistle. The player continues is shooting motion, releases the ball, and it goes in the basket. In my mind, even though I didn't sound my whistle, the ball was dead, but it probably, maybe definitely, wasn't dead by the rule book. I wave off the basket and give the player his first shot over again, which he misses. Before my partner gives him the ball for the second shot, I come in and apologize to him and he offers to shake my hand, which I do. My mistake. It wasn't the first mistake I've ever made. It won't be the last.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

It may not be the same everywhere, but here in Ohio we're told not to blow our whistles when the horn goes off to end a period. However, just because we don't blow our whistles, that doesn't mean a team can score after the horn.

So while I agree with the interpretation of the rule book, in actuality that doesn't seem to be true, and therefore those points can indeed be taken away.

You may not fully understand your instruction. When there is no try in flight at the expiration of time, then it is true that no whistle is necessary as the ball becomes dead upon the sounding of the horn. However when there is a try in flight as time expires, then the ball remains live until the try ends and at that point a whistle should be blown to signify the end of the quarter and that the ball is now dead.
Otherwise what the argument you are making is illogical. You are contending that the horn makes the ball dead in your area, but then stating that the officials can play on anyway and then come back and cancel the goal.
If any horn makes the ball dead in your state, then the play ends immediately and no goal can be scored. Btw that is counter to both the text of the NFHS Case Book and Official's Manual.

[Indianaref]

Interesting that this topic has just been brought up. Indiana's 3A girl's state final had a situation towards the end of game that had an inadvertent horn during a free throw. The lead official whistle the ball dead while the throw is in the air. He waived off the shot, which I thought at the time was something he didn't have the rules backing for. Here is the link, scroll to 1:41:53 to see the situation.

2014 IHSAA Girls Basketball 3A State Championship | Indiana High School Athletic Association Videos | iHigh.com

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Interesting that this topic has just been brought up. Indiana's 3A girl's state final had a situation towards the end of game that had an inadvertent horn during a free throw. The lead official whistle the ball dead while the throw is in the air. He waived off the shot, which I thought at the time was something he didn't have the rules backing for. Here is the link, scroll to 1:41:53 to see the situation.

2014 IHSAA Girls Basketball 3A State Championship | Indiana High School Athletic Association Videos | iHigh.com

If the ball is already in flight, he doesn't have rules support to cancel the try! In that particular circumstance, even a whistle would not cancel the try because it is already in flight.
He can stop it before the release.

Here is the NFHS Case Book play providing this principle:

6.7.5 SITUATION:
A1 is at the free-throw line for the second of two attempts. After the ball is at A1's disposal, B1 commits a lane violation. The administering official inadvertently sounds his/her whistle: (a) before A1 starts the free-throw motion; (b) after the ball has been released; or (c) during A1's motion but before release of the ball.

RULING: Whether or not the whistle was sounded inadvertently it has the same result. In (a) and (c), the ball becomes dead immediately. In (b), the whistle does not cause the ball to become dead until the free throw ends. Because B1 violated, in all cases, a substitute throw is awarded if the free-throw attempt by A1 is unsuccessful. (4-20-3)

[Nevadaref]

Just watched the video clip of the Indiana game.
The ball was clearly in the shooter's hands when the horn sounded, but definitely in flight when an official blew his whistle.

This took place following a commercial break on the video, so my guess is that the table person programmed in the media time-out and the last horn was automatic and due to the media break. The officials simply didn't wait long enough for all of the programming to complete before resuming play. Thus the final horn came during the ensuing FT action.

Not a knock on the crew as this happens frequently with State tournament and other televised HS games because the officials are not used to the admin stuff that goes with these contests. There is an art to managing such "events" beyond what is normally done in working a routine HS contest.

PS this is one of two reasons that I don't like gyms in which the TOs are timed via the scoreboard.

[constable]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Interesting that this topic has just been brought up. Indiana's 3A girl's state final had a situation towards the end of game that had an inadvertent horn during a free throw. The lead official whistle the ball dead while the throw is in the air. He waived off the shot, which I thought at the time was something he didn't have the rules backing for. Here is the link, scroll to 1:41:53 to see the situation.

2014 IHSAA Girls Basketball 3A State Championship | Indiana High School Athletic Association Videos | iHigh.com

Is it normal in NFHS mechanics for the trail to be so high up on FT?

Originally Posted by constable

Is it normal in NFHS mechanics for the trail to be so high up on FT?

Yes, the C official is in perfect book position.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You may not fully understand your instruction. When there is no try in flight at the expiration of time, then it is true that no whistle is necessary as the ball becomes dead upon the sounding of the horn. However when there is a try in flight as time expires, then the ball remains live until the try ends and at that point a whistle should be blown to signify the end of the quarter and that the ball is now dead.
Otherwise what the argument you are making is illogical. You are contending that the horn makes the ball dead in your area, but then stating that the officials can play on anyway and then come back and cancel the goal.
If any horn makes the ball dead in your state, then the play ends immediately and no goal can be scored. Btw that is counter to both the text of the NFHS Case Book and Official's Manual.

Whether or not there is a ball in the air when the horn goes off is irrelevant to our use of whistles at the end of the game... we just don't do it. I understand that it may be against what the rule book or official's manual says, but it wouldn't be the first time we did things differently (see the use of the "hand behind the head" signal on charging fouls). However, I'll make sure that I'm not misunderstanding things.

Heck, I don't even remember why I brought that up, as it doesn't seem relevant to the OP. Speaking of which... If that happened to me I'd immediately blow my whistle, go to the table to find out why the horn went off and make sure it won't happen again, and then restart the game from the POI.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Whether or not there is a ball in the air when the horn goes off is irrelevant to our use of whistles at the end of the game... we just don't do it. I understand that it may be against what the rule book or official's manual says, but it wouldn't be the first time we did things differently (see the use of the "hand behind the head" signal on charging fouls). However, I'll make sure that I'm not misunderstanding things.

MTD is an Ohio guy, so I'm going to reply to this post and hope that we will hear from him on the mechanics used in that state.
I really don't understand how you indacate that the ball has become dead and the moment at which the quarter is over without sounding a whistle in situations in which time expires while a try is in flight. Live ball/dead matters in such instances.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Heck, I don't even remember why I brought that up, as it doesn't seem relevant to the OP. Speaking of which... If that happened to me I'd immediately blow my whistle, go to the table to find out why the horn went off and make sure it won't happen again, and then restart the game from the POI.

How many years have you been officiating at the HS level? I ask because you seem to react to certain things which happen or could happen in a game and want to do something which often isn't appropriate. Here is such an example. In many cases, an official should NOT immediately react to a horn by blowing the whistle: during scoring plays & inadvertent horns are two. Don't jump on a situation without proper thought first.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

MTD is an Ohio guy, so I'm going to reply to this post and hope that we will hear from him on the mechanics used in that state.
I really don't understand how you indacate that the ball has become dead and the moment at which the quarter is over without sounding a whistle in situations in which time expires while a try is in flight. Live ball/dead matters in such instances.

How many years have you been officiating at the HS level? I ask because you seem to react to certain things which happen or could happen in a game and want to do something which often isn't appropriate. Here is such an example. In many cases, an official should NOT immediately react to a horn by blowing the whistle: during scoring plays & inadvertent horns are two. Don't jump on a situation without proper thought first.

I'm talking about the situation in the original post, not making a blanket statement about inadvertent horns, and whether I would blow the whistle. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that I seem react to certain things which happen or could happen, but any advice is appreciated. If you have specific examples then that could help.

By the way, I just finished my 5th season as a certified official (not including work I've done in rec leagues in which certified officials were not necessary). And a couple of weeks ago I was invited to join a varsity crew who had a partner retire (not sure that means anything, but just excited about it and wanted to share).