A bit of a mess at an Indiana HS game

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by AremRed

... if the initial "get off me" arm push by W43 resulted in no reaction by G2, would you give W43 a tech?

Absolutely. Why would you let H.S. kids push each other? It could lead to something else later. Maybe a "sucker punch"?

If you were a teacher in a classroom...would you let a student shove another student and just give him/her a WARNING? Maybe...but one Technical can be considered a STERN WARNING...just like in the classroom.

If your kid got shoved in the classroom...I don't think you would even mind an "EJECTION" from the classroom on the kid that did the shoving...would you? (I guess we could ask rockyroad how he would handle a classroom shove)

Also...if a player taunted another player and that player punched the taunter...what would you do? I eject both.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

You got that right and NFHS case book play 4.18.2 supports tossing the player who taunted:

A1 dunks over B1 and then taunts B1. B1 retaliates and punches A1.

RULING: Both A1 and B1 are charged with a flagrant technical foul for fighting and are disqualified. A1's action is defined as fighting when the taunting caused B1 to retaliate by fighting. (Rule 10, Section 3; 10-3-6c: 10-3-8)

Good enough for me. I'm convinced. Glad we had this discussion.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

... if a player taunted another player and that player punched the taunter...what would you do? I eject both.

Nit picking note: We disqualify (with rare exception) players, we eject adults.

Agree. If the "push" were an isolated incident, then I probably would simply have sternly spoken to the "pusher", and, as an isolated incident, I would not have charged a technical foul (dead ball intentional) to the "pusher". However, once the "push" caused the "punch", that now becomes a "fight", and now the situation leaves me but one choice, two separate flagrant technical fouls charged, disqualification for both, and paperwork for whomever is the referee in my game.

Would this be a double technical foul, or a false double technical foul, i.e., point of interruption, or free throw shooting?

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nit picking note: We disqualify (with exception) players, we eject adults.

Thank-you for that correction...I would "disqualify" both.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the "push" were an isolated incident, then I would simply have sternly spoken to the "pusher", and, as an isolated incident, I would not have charged a technical foul (dead ball intentional) to the "pusher".

This, to me, is a bigger deal than terminology...i.e. disqualification/ejection.

Your above statement has to do with philosophy (Game Management)...in my game Technical foul, no warning for dead ball contact, as shown on video, in the OP

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Would this be a double technical foul, or a false double technical foul, i.e., point of interruption, or free throw shooting?

Double Technical...POI. (If my initial T did not STOP the "sucker punch")

Note: Hopefully, my loud whistle, my dramatic whack signal, and my strong presence of closing in stopped all the other nonsense.
(Can you tell I have a bit of an ego?)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Oh, I am aware. As OKREF recently reminded me, dead ball contact is ignored unless intentional or flagrant. I see the arm swipe as neither.

You don't see what she did as intentional? She accidentally shoved the player who just fouled her?

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Adam

You don't see what she did as intentional? She accidentally shoved the player who just fouled her?

Exactly Adam...

And just to be clear. If you wanted to warn a player for certain contact in certain situations...I would have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with your judgement, or with your philosopy in this matter... as my partner. It would not stop me wanting to work with you in future games.

I would, however, discuss with you (maybe over a refreshment after the game) and in a good natured way... our differences in how we handle certain situations. You could take it or leave it...and I could take or leave your ideas. BUT...at least we are talking about situations and, hopefully, getting experience and getting better at reacting to these situations that we discuss.

When a Coach sees us walk into his gym...he should know what to expect.

Hopefully, most of the time...a well managed game, a controled game, a consistent game, a well called game, a game we can communicate with each other and maybe even have a little fun doing it.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Exactly Adam...

Good natured or no, I think you’re going to end up agreeing to disagree with a lot of us. I can’t see any way W #43’s shove wasn’t on purpose. She felt G #2 near her after the foul and she pushed her away. Was it violent? Nope, but it was definitely done on purpose.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Good natured or no, I think you’re going to end up agreeing to disagree with a lot of us. I can’t see any way W #43’s shove wasn’t on purpose. She felt G #2 near her after the foul and she pushed her away. Was it violent? Nope, but it was definitely done on purpose.

Dan isn't the one who disagrees with that.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

... I think you’re going to end up agreeing to disagree with a lot of us.

Just to be perfectly clear...what am I going to agree to disagree "with a lot of us"?

[BigT]

Honestly I have a hard time believing this would happen in any of our games. Because you all look for trouble and do things that make the kids know they are going to be taken care of and you will take care of any crap they start to think about.

I dont believe that shove was the first sign of the trouble it was the last sign of trouble. Just how they handled it makes me have very little faith in the pre-signs and management of what probably lead up to it.

Good officals elevate their game for a rivalry. Good officials elevate their game for a competitive game. Good officals look for the only thing that could mess up this type of game. Just my 2 cents worth.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Neither intentional or flagrant, silly :P

Is that a HS official's thought process? Because that clearly is not what this situation is seen by the NF for sure.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

I must’ve read the threads wrong but I thought Dan felt W #43 didn’t do what she did on purpose. If that’s not the case, my apologies.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I must’ve read the threads wrong but I thought Dan felt W #43 didn’t do what she did on purpose. If that’s not the case, my apologies.

Go back and re-read. That was Aremred.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Adam

Go back and re-read. That was Aremred.

Okay. Again, my apologies. The sentiment is the same. The names got lost in the shuffle.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Initial foul on green: two shots (assuming bonus).
Double flagrant on the initial two participants. (no shots)
Four flagrant technical fouls on white for what seems to be the entire coaching staff coming onto the court (they all, at some point, antagonized the situation), so the HC doesn't get a break. Not that it would really matter, other than the difference between 6 and 8 FTs: but the HC will be ejected anyway due to the three indirect Ts he gets for his assistant coaches coming onto the court. I've got 8 free throws for green.
One FTF on the green coach due to his engagement with the white coaching staff. Sadly, I can't tell how many of these other people are coaches for green since they. Any of them who are coaches also get Ts. So, at the very least, the HC is done, and green gets two fewer FTs, down to 6.

The officials really should have done everything they could to clear the court and keep a neutral zone between the benches. White's player was down in her own FC, so she could have been tended to without any coaches talking to each other.

So: Two shots for white.
Eight shots for green.
Ball to green at half court (if there are any coaches left for white and/or green).

I'd also be tempted to call a FTF on W35 for her half-assed shove of G2 while G11 was doing the right thing and pushing her away, but I'd probably not do it.

May I suggest that you review the following as to number of FTs awarded and number of indirect Ts charged.

Rule 10, Section 4
ART. 5

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:

Leave the confines of the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out.

NOTE: The head coach may enter the court in the situation where a fight may break out – or has broken out – to prevent the situation from escalating.

PENALTY: (Art. 5) Flagrant foul, disqualification of individual offender, but only one technical-foul penalty is administered regardless of the number of offenders. This one foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach. If the head coach is an offender, an additional flagrant technical foul is charged directly to the coach and penalized. When a simultaneous technical foul(s) by opponents occurs, the free throws are not awarded when the penalties offset.