Offensive Foul after Shooting Foul?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Freddy

B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.

This is not ever a double foul. In order to be a double foul, the opponents have to commit fouls against each other. This is not true in your scenario. This would always be a false double foul or simultaneous foul depending upon the timing of the two fouls.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is not ever a double foul. In order to be a double foul, the opponents have to commit fouls against each other. This is not true in your scenario. This would always be a false double foul or simultaneous foul depending upon the timing of the two fouls.

Of course.
Duh.
Doi.
That's what I get when I try to think through these things while passing the time watching daughter's volleyball game.

[Sharpshooternes]

So in the blarge situation we are discussiong, when do you consider it a double foul and when do you consider it a false double foul? Whether the ball is released on the try or not? I am looking at 4.19.8c and 4.19.9a.

[Adam]

Double foul on a blarge. Never a false double.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Adam

Double foul on a blarge. Never a false double.

So what is the difference between the two case plays I posted above?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So what is the difference between the two case plays I posted above?

4.19.9a is two separate contacts. A1 is fouled by B1 on the way up, and A1 fouls B2 on the way down.

4.19.8c is a single contact which draws opposite calls from two different officials.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4.19.9a is two separate contacts. A1 is fouled by B1 on the way up, and A1 fouls B2 on the way down.

4.19.8c is a single contact which draws opposite calls from two different officials.

So in 4.19.8c it is strictly that 2 officials called two different things. SO in theory it could be exactly the same play but in one case, one referee calls both fouls (the false double foul). Is that right?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So in 4.19.8c it is strictly that 2 officials called two different things. SO in theory it could be exactly the same play but in one case, one referee calls both fouls (the false double foul). Is that right?

I see no reason why any double foul could not be called by two different officials. The unique thing about 4.19.8c is conflicting block/charge calls on the same play, which by definition is impossible. Others say both fouls must be reported when the officials give the conflicting preliminary signal, but I see nothing in the case play which demands this. What do you think?



Hey, he asked.

[Adam]

I'm not sure what the situations are, to be honest. But....

There would need to be more of a difference. Any time you have a double foul, neither can be a PC due to definitions. It is possible to have a double foul called by one official (not likely, but possible) on a shooter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Hey, he asked.

I'll allow it.

If you don't mind a Don Quixote pic.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That, is not a double foul. That is a false double foul since B2 committed the first foul and B3 was the one fouled by A1.

In this case, the foul by A1 is still a PC foul so the basket can be scored. But, since A1 was fouled in the act of shooting, A1 gets 2 FTs.

Now, the big question is whether you'll have A1 shoot the FTs with no one one the lane and award the ball to someone after the shot or if you'll shoot the FTs normally.

Did you mean "cannot be scored?"

As for your last question, it would depend on which foul happened first. In the OP, I'd clear the lane and give the ball to the defense after the basket.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Did you mean "cannot be scored?"

As for your last question, it would depend on which foul happened first. In the OP, I'd clear the lane and give the ball to the defense after the basket.

I actually deleted that post right after I posted it when I read further down the thread and realized that my points had already been covered.

And, yes, I meant can NOT be scored.

I don't think it would depend on which happened first. If there is a PC foul, the ball is dead. Subsequent contact wouldn't even be a foul unless it was intentional or flagrant (and I don't think that is the situation under discussion). So, the only way you can get two fouls where one of them is a PC foul is if the PC foul happens last.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So in 4.19.8c it is strictly that 2 officials called two different things. SO in theory it could be exactly the same play but in one case, one referee calls both fouls (the false double foul). Is that right?

That's not correct. In 4.19.8C the fouls are by two players AGAINST EACH OTHER. That's a double foul. So the "charge" is NOT a PC foul, the try counts and you resume at the POI (B's ball on the endlien if the try is good, the arrow if the try is not good). This is really no different than A1 tries, B2 and A2 foul each other getting into position for the rebound.

In 4.19.9A , The fouls are not by players against each other. One B player fouls A1, and A1 in turn fouls a DIFFERENT B player. That makes it a false double foul. Here the "charge" is a PC foul and BOTH fouls are penalized.

[Adam]

One other possibility would be a simultaneous foul. No books handy, but I have to assume that would also exclude a PC.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

One other possibility would be a simultaneous foul. No books handy, but I have to assume that would also exclude a PC.

"A common foul ... nor part of a double, simultaneous or multiple foul."