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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 10:50am
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Offensive Foul after Shooting Foul?

If A goes for a shot and B blocks & commits a foul, while still airborne, A pushes B away and makes the shot, would A be called for a foul or game stops when the defense commits a foul and a free throw awarded, or would A be awarded a free throw and A takes a foul and ball starts as if A commited a foul, but what if A missed the freethrow?

Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul, and rarely followed by an offensive foul, but it can happen if B fouled hard and A shoves B away to make a shot.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 11:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul,
Never is that the definition of or an example of a double foul.

In your play, it is a double foul, and both are penalized.

Last edited by Adam; Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 12:37pm. Reason: formatting
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 11:16am
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Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
If A goes for a shot and B blocks & commits a foul, while still airborne, A pushes B away and makes the shot, would A be called for a foul or game stops when the defense commits a foul and a free throw awarded, or would A be awarded a free throw and A takes a foul and ball starts as if A commited a foul, but what if A missed the freethrow?
Always appreciate the challenge of considering a situation, but your blended statements and random punctuation and lack thereof render your situation difficult to understand. Could you please rephrase the situation more clearly and give me another chance to try to figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul,
This isn't compatible with the definition of a "double foul"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
...and rarely followed by an offensive foul, but it can happen if B fouled hard and A shoves B away to make a shot.
...though this might. One important consideration that might be helpful is that the defensive foul does not cause the ball to be come dead, but the player control foul does--immediately. That will have an impact on whether to count the score or not.
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Last edited by Freddy; Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 11:19am.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 11:27am
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Also (and I'm not sure if this will help potato), there are a couple of plays in the case book that deal with this -- and you get slightly different rulings depending on the specifics.

I don't have the books here to cite, though.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 12:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Always appreciate the challenge of considering a situation, but your blended statements and random punctuation and lack thereof render your situation difficult to understand. Could you please rephrase the situation more clearly and give me another chance to try to figure it out?


This isn't compatible with the definition of a "double foul"...


...though this might. One important consideration that might be helpful is that the defensive foul does not cause the ball to be come dead, but the player control foul does--immediately. That will have an impact on whether to count the score or not.
If this is counted as a double foul, then it does not fit the definition of a player control foul.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:16pm
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How So?

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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
If this is counted as a double foul, then it does not fit the definition of a player control foul.
B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.
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Last edited by Freddy; Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 06:26pm.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 07:07pm
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Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.
Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 07:17pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.
Thanx. That gives me something to check out tonight. Just incidentally, isn't a "blarge" an example of a double foul, one of which is a PC foul?
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 07:29pm
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Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Thanx. That gives me something to check out tonight. Just incidentally, isn't a "blarge" an example of a double foul, one of which is a PC foul?
No, a blarge is one foul that is called differently by two different officials.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 07:57pm
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Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Thanx. That gives me something to check out tonight. Just incidentally, isn't a "blarge" an example of a double foul, one of which is a PC foul?
Nope, that's why you'd count the score on a blarge, too.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:09pm
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No, a blarge is one foul that is called differently by two different officials.
I see your point, but note that 4.19.8C (re. the "blarge") does say, "...itis not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul."
That seems to be different than what you are saying, but I'm still seeing the reasoning behind your statement.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:15pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.
Trying to find where either book says a double foul excludes PC fouls. Is there a reference I'm not seeing, or is that a reasonable inference you've drawn?
Not alleging you to be wrong, just trying to find a reference that justifies your point.
I do see that 2.19.8C says, "Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul." Is that what you were referring to, or is there another I should consider?
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Last edited by Freddy; Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:27pm.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 09:15pm
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I guess it depends on how you define "approximately at the same time," but I see this clearly as a false double foul, for which each foul carries its own penalty.

4.19.9 Situation A

The blocking foul doesn't cause the ball to become dead, but the foul by the offense (a player-control foul) wipes off the shot.

A1 gets two free throws on an empty lane. If the second free throw is made, team B gets a throw-in on the endline. If it's missed, team B gets a designated-spot throw-in nearest the spot of the player-control foul.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 10:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Trying to find where either book says a double foul excludes PC fouls. Is there a reference I'm not seeing,
Hint: Is a PC foul a common foul? Can a common foul be part of a double foul?

The definitions are your friend
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2013, 10:07pm
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Originally Posted by dsavitzky View Post
I guess it depends on how you define "approximately at the same time," but I see this clearly as a false double foul, for which each foul carries its own penalty.

4.19.9 Situation A.
See also 4.19.8C

I seem to recal another case, but maybe I'm getting it confused with the try-foul-GT (or BI) situation.
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