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-   -   Offensive Foul after Shooting Foul? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/96248-offensive-foul-after-shooting-foul.html)

potato Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:50am
Offensive Foul after Shooting Foul?
 
If A goes for a shot and B blocks & commits a foul, while still airborne, A pushes B away and makes the shot, would A be called for a foul or game stops when the defense commits a foul and a free throw awarded, or would A be awarded a free throw and A takes a foul and ball starts as if A commited a foul, but what if A missed the freethrow?

Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul, and rarely followed by an offensive foul, but it can happen if B fouled hard and A shoves B away to make a shot.

bob jenkins Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by potato (Post 907175)
Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul,
Never is that the definition of or an example of a double foul.

In your play, it is a double foul, and both are penalized.

Freddy Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:16am
Huh?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by potato (Post 907175)
If A goes for a shot and B blocks & commits a foul, while still airborne, A pushes B away and makes the shot, would A be called for a foul or game stops when the defense commits a foul and a free throw awarded, or would A be awarded a free throw and A takes a foul and ball starts as if A commited a foul, but what if A missed the freethrow?
Always appreciate the challenge of considering a situation, but your blended statements and random punctuation and lack thereof render your situation difficult to understand. Could you please rephrase the situation more clearly and give me another chance to try to figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato (Post 907175)
Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul,
This isn't compatible with the definition of a "double foul"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato (Post 907175)
...and rarely followed by an offensive foul, but it can happen if B fouled hard and A shoves B away to make a shot.
...though this might. One important consideration that might be helpful is that the defensive foul does not cause the ball to be come dead, but the player control foul does--immediately. That will have an impact on whether to count the score or not.

bob jenkins Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:27am
Also (and I'm not sure if this will help potato), there are a couple of plays in the case book that deal with this -- and you get slightly different rulings depending on the specifics.

I don't have the books here to cite, though.

Adam Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907177)
Always appreciate the challenge of considering a situation, but your blended statements and random punctuation and lack thereof render your situation difficult to understand. Could you please rephrase the situation more clearly and give me another chance to try to figure it out?


This isn't compatible with the definition of a "double foul"...


...though this might. One important consideration that might be helpful is that the defensive foul does not cause the ball to be come dead, but the player control foul does--immediately. That will have an impact on whether to count the score or not.
If this is counted as a double foul, then it does not fit the definition of a player control foul.

Freddy Thu Oct 10, 2013 06:16pm
How So?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 907189)
If this is counted as a double foul, then it does not fit the definition of a player control foul.
B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.

Adam Thu Oct 10, 2013 07:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907218)
B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.
Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.

Freddy Thu Oct 10, 2013 07:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 907222)
Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.
Thanx. That gives me something to check out tonight. Just incidentally, isn't a "blarge" an example of a double foul, one of which is a PC foul?

AremRed Thu Oct 10, 2013 07:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907223)
Thanx. That gives me something to check out tonight. Just incidentally, isn't a "blarge" an example of a double foul, one of which is a PC foul?
No, a blarge is one foul that is called differently by two different officials.

Adam Thu Oct 10, 2013 07:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907223)
Thanx. That gives me something to check out tonight. Just incidentally, isn't a "blarge" an example of a double foul, one of which is a PC foul?
Nope, that's why you'd count the score on a blarge, too.

Freddy Thu Oct 10, 2013 08:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 907224)
No, a blarge is one foul that is called differently by two different officials.
I see your point, but note that 4.19.8C (re. the "blarge") does say, "...itis not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul."
That seems to be different than what you are saying, but I'm still seeing the reasoning behind your statement.

Freddy Thu Oct 10, 2013 08:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 907222)
Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.
Trying to find where either book says a double foul excludes PC fouls. Is there a reference I'm not seeing, or is that a reasonable inference you've drawn?
Not alleging you to be wrong, just trying to find a reference that justifies your point.
I do see that 2.19.8C says, "Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul." Is that what you were referring to, or is there another I should consider?

dsavitzky Thu Oct 10, 2013 09:15pm
I guess it depends on how you define "approximately at the same time," but I see this clearly as a false double foul, for which each foul carries its own penalty.

4.19.9 Situation A

The blocking foul doesn't cause the ball to become dead, but the foul by the offense (a player-control foul) wipes off the shot.

A1 gets two free throws on an empty lane. If the second free throw is made, team B gets a throw-in on the endline. If it's missed, team B gets a designated-spot throw-in nearest the spot of the player-control foul.

bob jenkins Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907228)
Trying to find where either book says a double foul excludes PC fouls. Is there a reference I'm not seeing,
Hint: Is a PC foul a common foul? Can a common foul be part of a double foul?

The definitions are your friend

bob jenkins Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsavitzky (Post 907232)
I guess it depends on how you define "approximately at the same time," but I see this clearly as a false double foul, for which each foul carries its own penalty.

4.19.9 Situation A.
See also 4.19.8C

I seem to recal another case, but maybe I'm getting it confused with the try-foul-GT (or BI) situation.


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