Offensive foul - shooting or not?

[Hugh Refner]

Guys - just want to make sure I have it straight on team control (offensive) fouls and whether or not free throws are warranted. In all situations, NF rules and team B is in the bonus.

Situation one - A1 to inbound (spot) and before the ball is handed to him A2 commits what would be a common foul on B2 if the ball was live. No foul and no shots because ball is dead and contact is not flagrant to cause a technical, right?

Situation two - same thing only it occurs after A1 is handed the ball from the official. Ball is live but there's shots because no team control, right?

Situation three - same thing only it occurs after A1 releases the ball on a throw-in pass but it is not caught or touched yet. Ball is live but there's shots because no team control, right?

IOW, team A must be in team control to have no shots by team B because the foul is a team control (offensive) foul, right?

Thanks.

[APG]

Correct in all three situations.

[Indianaref]

You got it right.

[Welpe]

I'll take a stab.

Originally Posted by Hugh Refner

Situation one - A1 to inbound (spot) and before the ball is handed to him A2 commits what would be a common foul on B2 if the ball was live. No foul and no shots because ball is dead and contact is not flagrant to cause a technical, right?

Contact does not have to be flagrant to warrant a technical. It could also be intentional.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I'll take a stab.



Contact does not have to be flagrant to warrant a technical. It could also be intentional.

Correct.

[Hugh Refner]

Thanks guys. I thought I had it right. One reason I asked was because a few weeks ago, I had a partner call an "offensive" personal foul during a throw-in after the ball became live but still in the inbounders hands. He said there were no shots on an offensive foul. I tried to explain team control to him but he wasn't interested. BTW - the team that got fouled was in the bonus.

[representing]

Originally Posted by Hugh Refner

Guys - just want to make sure I have it straight on team control (offensive) fouls and whether or not free throws are warranted. In all situations, NF rules and team B is in the bonus.

Situation one - A1 to inbound (spot) and before the ball is handed to him A2 commits what would be a common foul on B2 if the ball was live. No foul and no shots because ball is dead and contact is not flagrant to cause a technical, right?

Situation two - same thing only it occurs after A1 is handed the ball from the official. Ball is live but there's shots because no team control, right?

Situation three - same thing only it occurs after A1 releases the ball on a throw-in pass but it is not caught or touched yet. Ball is live but there's shots because no team control, right?

IOW, team A must be in team control to have no shots by team B because the foul is a team control (offensive) foul, right?

Thanks.

Ok, I may be reading this wrong, but since when can't you have a foul when the ball is dead and for it not to be technical or flagrant?

[APG]

Originally Posted by representing

Ok, I may be reading this wrong, but since when can't you have a foul when the ball is dead and for it not to be technical or flagrant?

4-19-1 Note:

Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by representing

Ok, I may be reading this wrong, but since when can't you have a foul when the ball is dead and for it not to be technical or flagrant?

I'm honestly trying to figure out what you're asking, but I'll try to answer what I think you're asking.

Contact during a dead ball should be ignored unless it's intentional, flagrant, or involving an airborne shooter. Intentional and flagrant dead ball fouls will always be ruled technical fouls. Fouls with an airborne shooter will be personal fouls.

[representing]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm honestly trying to figure out what you're asking, but I'll try to answer what I think you're asking.

Contact during a dead ball should be ignored unless it's intentional, flagrant, or involving an airborne shooter. Intentional and flagrant dead ball fouls will always be ruled technical fouls. Fouls with an airborne shooter will be personal fouls.

I'm not so sure that is correct. I mean... let's take this situation.

You're standing next to a player wanting to take a throw-in. You still have the ball. A1 incidentally pushes B1 over to get to the corner, while thinking his teammate has the ball to pass it in. You would ignore that while you're still holding the ball, when this would normally be a personal foul during live ball? Would you call it an intentional foul, when it was legitimately an incidental, personal foul during a dead ball?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by representing

I'm not so sure that is correct.

It is correct. It is almost 4-19-1 NOTE verbatim.

You would ignore that while you're still holding the ball, when this would normally be a personal foul during live ball?

Yes. Maybe a quick word to knock it off if appropriate.

Would you call it an intentional foul, when it was legitimately an incidental, personal foul during a dead ball?

No.

[APG]

Originally Posted by representing

I'm not so sure that is correct. I mean... let's take this situation.

You're standing next to a player wanting to take a throw-in. You still have the ball. A1 incidentally pushes B1 over to get to the corner, while thinking his teammate has the ball to pass it in. You would ignore that while you're still holding the ball, when this would normally be a personal foul during live ball? Would you call it an intentional foul, when it was legitimately an incidental, personal foul during a dead ball?

It's exactly correct. Contact when the ball is dead, that is neither intentional or flagrant is ignored. Now that doesn't mean you can't warn players to knock it off, but by wrong, you've got nothing to call unless it reaches the necessary level.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by representing

You're standing next to a player wanting to take a throw-in. You still have the ball. A1 incidentally pushes B1 over to get to the corner, while thinking his teammate has the ball to pass it in. You would ignore that while you're still holding the ball, when this would normally be a personal foul during live ball? Would you call it an intentional foul, when it was legitimately an incidental, personal foul during a dead ball?

Ask yourself this...

What advantage did A1 gain with his contact while you were holding the ball? B1 can still recover from the contact and get back into defensive coverage. If the thrower had the ball though, it would be a different situation. In that case, the throw-in could come in to A1 while B1 was out of position due to the contact.

No advantage---> no intentional foul....in this case. Note that the definition of an intentional foul in rule 4-19-3 says that it neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. That can't happen when the official is still holding on to the ball.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

No advantage---> no intentional foul....in this case. Note that the definition of an intentional foul in rule 4-19-3 says that it neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. That can't happen when the official is still holding on to the ball.

As you know, an intentional foul can also be called for excessive contact. That's the provision that would be applied to dead ball contact.

And if excessively excessive, it might even be flagrant.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by representing

Would you call it an intentional foul, when it was legitimately an incidental, personal foul during a dead ball?

Impossible.