Dunk, then PC Crash - Basket Good?

[Freddy]

I'm searching for NFHS rulebook documentation on this play:
> A1 drives the endline, dunks, then, after the ball has passed through the net, crashes into B2 who had legal guarding position.
Search of past threads, as far as I could get through them, hinted that in Fed the score is not counted and A1 is charged with a PC foul, but that NCAA is different.
If this is correct (and please correct me if I'm wrong!), is this because the act of shooting includes the airborne shooter (4-1-2)? Otherwise it would seem to be a dead ball foul, the ball having passed through the basket prior to the foul.
Your help in helping my understanding would be helpful.
Thanx!

[bob jenkins]

In NCAAM, PC does NOT include an airborne shooter after the ball has been released.

Your understanding of the reason for the PC in FED is correct.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I'm searching for NFHS rulebook documentation on this play:
> A1 drives the endline, dunks, then, after the ball has passed through the net, crashes into B2 who had legal guarding position.
Search of past threads, as far as I could get through them, hinted that in Fed the score is not counted and A1 is charged with a PC foul, but that NCAA is different.
If this is correct (and please correct me if I'm wrong!), is this because the act of shooting includes the airborne shooter (4-1-2)? Otherwise it would seem to be a dead ball foul, the ball having passed through the basket prior to the foul.
Your help in helping my understanding would be helpful.
Thanx!

I would think it would be ignored in NCAA, unless it was flagrant or intentional, since it's dead ball contact.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I'm searching for NFHS rulebook documentation on this play:
> A1 drives the endline, dunks, then, after the ball has passed through the net, crashes into B2 who had legal guarding position.

Did you look in the Case Book? Let's say 10.6.1C?

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Did you look in the Case Book? Let's say 10.6.1C?

That is what I was looking for. That casebook reference escaped my notice because I limited my searching to include the word "dunk." I see how this reference applies to the OP.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

10.6.1C.

10.6.1 SITUATION C: B1 is standing behind the plane of the backboard before
A1 jumps for a lay-up shot. The forward momentum causes airborne shooter A1
to charge into B1. RULING: B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally before
A1 left the floor. If the ball goes through the basket before or after the contact
occurs, the player-control foul cancels the goal. However, if B1 moves into the
path of A1 after A1 has left the floor, the foul is on B1. B1’s foul on the airborne
shooter is a foul during the act of shooting. If the shot is successful, one free
throw is awarded and if it is unsuccessful, two free throws result. (4-19-1, 6; 6-
7-4; 10 Penalty 2, 5a)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

I would think it would be ignored in NCAA, unless it was flagrant or intentional, since it's dead ball contact.

Dead ball? Yes. But still a common personal (if anything is to be called) since it involves an airborne shooter. Or does the NCAA not extend the live ball for an airborne shooter?

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10.6.1 SITUATION C: B1 is standing behind the plane of the backboard before
A1 jumps for a lay-up shot. The forward momentum causes airborne shooter A1
to charge into B1. RULING: B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally before
A1 left the floor. If the ball goes through the basket before or after the contact
occurs, the player-control foul cancels the goal. However, if B1 moves into the
path of A1 after A1 has left the floor, the foul is on B1. B1’s foul on the airborne
shooter is a foul during the act of shooting. If the shot is successful, one free
throw is awarded and if it is unsuccessful, two free throws result. (4-19-1, 6; 6-
7-4; 10 Penalty 2, 5a)

Not to thread hijack here but regarding this play, many officals would rather have a play on in this type of situation as it is an athletic play, and they claim that being under the basket (or behind in the case play) isn't really playing defense and thus shouldn't warrant a PC foul. My opinion is that until NFHS adopts the restricted circle or some variation of such, it should still be a PC.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Dead ball? Yes. But still a common personal (if anything is to be called) since it involves an airborne shooter. Or does the NCAA not extend the live ball for an airborne shooter?

Good point, I made an assumption. Now that you ask, I confess I don't know.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Good point, I made an assumption. Now that you ask, I confess I don't know.

I believe they do. I wasn't certain either so this is what I've found....

Rule 4...
Section 1. Airborne Shooter
Art. 2. An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for goal until that player has returned to the floor.

Section 73. Try for Goal/Act of Shooting
Art. 7. An airborne shooter, who is fouled by an opponent, while in the air but
after the ball is released shall be considered to be in the act of shooting until that airborne player returns to the floor.

As far as what the foul is, it isn't so explicit but I think it is buried as an exception in the fragrant 2 rule...

f. Flagrant 2 technical foul. A flagrant 2 technical foul can be either contact
or noncontact.
1. A flagrant 2 contact technical foul occurs when the ball is dead and the contact is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme.
a. An exception may be a foul committed by an airborne shooter.

I think this is where they are trying to say that an airborne shooter can commit a contact foul during a dead ball without it being considered flagrant. The NCAA wording is pretty sloppy here but I can't believe that they want a foul on an airborne shooter to be forced to be flagrant or nothing just because the ball has gone through the hoop before the shooter (dunker) lands.

[johnny d]

In NCAA-M it would be highly unlikely, not impossible, but highly unlikely that the defender could have established LGP in this situation. Most often, this is going to be a secondary defender and probably inside the RA.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

In NCAA-M it would be highly unlikely, not impossible, but highly unlikely that the defender could have established LGP in this situation. Most often, this is going to be a secondary defender and probably inside the RA.

Not sure that it's highly unlikely if a big post player has managed to shove his defender under the basket without getting a foul called.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Adam

Not sure that it's highly unlikely if a big post player has managed to shove his defender under the basket without getting a foul called.

Really, you see this play happen often? Maybe you should stop watching old tapes of LSU from the Shaq era.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Really, you see this play happen often? Maybe you should stop watching old tapes of LSU from the Shaq era.

Nah, I didn't realize we were talking about real life frequency. In that case, the entire play is highly unlikely.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Nah, I didn't realize we were talking about real life frequency. In that case, the entire play is highly unlikely.

What exactly is unlikely? A foul involving a player after the ball is dead (e.g.e dunked the ball)? If so, I don't think it is really that unlikely. A late defender trying to still contest the dunk might not make contact until after the ball is through. It may be close, but due to the way rules are written, we don't really care. The foul is charged and penalized the same until the shooter lands.