Basket Good?

[RedRef]

A1 takes a shot at his basket. The ball rebounds such that after hitting the rim, it sails to the left of the rim, completely outside and left of the cylinder, and still above rim level.

B1 jumps to secure the rebound. While trying to secure the rebound, B1 accidentally taps the ball toward the basket.

The ball sails over the cylinder, still above the rim. The buzzer sounds and light goes off ending the period. The ball passes through the basket.

Is the basket good?


P.S. Team A down by 1 when the play starts.

[deecee]

score 2 for the team whos basket that was -- as long as the contact happened before the buzzer the ball is live until it goes through the basket or hits the floor -- if a defensive player after the buzzer causes interference still score 2. just like a normal shot it doesnt matter who hit it last.

[Lotto]

The ball only stays live after the horn if there is a try for a goal, and B1's tapping of the ball towards A's goal is not a try. The ball is dead immediately when the horn sounds. There is no score.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by deecee
score 2 for the team whos basket that was -- as long as the contact happened before the buzzer the ball is live until it goes through the basket or hits the floor -- if a defensive player after the buzzer causes interference still score 2. just like a normal shot it doesnt matter who hit it last.

rule references?

(only necessary for us rulebook officials. Others can just rely on common sense.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RedRef
1) A1 takes a shot at his basket. The ball rebounds such that after hitting the rim, it sails to the left of the rim, completely outside and left of the cylinder, and still above rim level.

2) B1 jumps to secure the rebound. While trying to secure the rebound, B1 accidentally taps the ball toward the basket.

3) The ball sails over the cylinder, still above the rim. The buzzer sounds and light goes off ending the period. The ball passes through the basket.

Is the basket good?


P.S. Team A down by 1 when the play starts.

I'll walk you through it, for the benefit of DeeCee also:
1) A1's shot or try ended when it sailed to the left i.e. it was certain that the try was unsuccessful. NFHS rule 4-41-4.

2) B1's tap isn't a try because it's not directed at his team's basket. Rule 4-41-2.

3) B1's tap was still in the air when the horn sounded. The ball now becomes dead, as per rule 6-7-6. You cannot score a goal if the ball isn't live, as per rule 5-1-1.

Ergo, no basket.

That covers it, rules wise. Same call under NCAA rules.

[deecee]

never knew that

[RedRef]

Thanks, Jurassic and Lotto. That's how I interpreted the play also, BUT...

..this was NCAA game, refs counted the basket, Team A wins by 1.

Also, there was no monitor for review. It was a "bang-bang" play and very difficult to get right without review. I had to watch the replay several times to come to the no basket conclusion. You really needed the slow motion to see the touch by the defense vs. the end of game light vs. position of the ball.

Granted, as a ref, you always want to get this correct, but it was a tough play.

And I'm not trying to absolve the refs of all responsibility, but I think one of many lessons learned here is for the schools...have a courtside monitor if at all possible.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by RedRef
Thanks, Jurassic and Lotto. That's how I interpreted the play also, BUT...

..this was NCAA game, refs counted the basket, Team A wins by 1.

Also, there was no monitor for review. It was a "bang-bang" play and very difficult to get right without review. I had to watch the replay several times to come to the no basket conclusion. You really needed the slow motion to see the touch by the defense vs. the end of game light vs. position of the ball.

Granted, as a ref, you always want to get this correct, but it was a tough play.

And I'm not trying to absolve the refs of all responsibility, but I think one of many lessons learned here is for the schools...have a courtside monitor if at all possible.

Was there any question as to who actually touched it?

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Was there any question as to who actually touched it?

That still may not matter. Even if the offense was the last to touch the ball, the goal still shouldn't count.

By rule touching a ball during rebounding action is not the same as a tap which we know is treated as the same as a try for goal in all cases other than the 3/10 of a second situation.

If the covering official didn't consider the offensive player's touching to be a tap (attempt to score), then the ball would still become dead when time expired.

[RedRef]

No question at all about who touched the ball. There were no players on offense anywhere close. The defensive touch was very clear.

Not a smart play by the defender, but I suspect he wanted to secure the rebound to be sure no players on offense could make a final tap.

[tomegun]

This is a good play to discuss. Great information.

Redref, don't hold your breath for schools to get monitors. I'm assuming this wasn't a D1 game, since they didn't have a monitor, and the school probably will not get one anytime soon.

Nevada, although you are right by the rules, I don't know if I agree with you. It could be hard to explain to a coach if the defender touched the ball. I would want it to count if I was the coach and we know most of them wouldn't know this rule. If the offense touches the ball I would see it as a tap and count it. If it is clear that the offense touched the ball, good luck with explaining this one.
How would this same play be handled if it wasn't at the end of the game but the rebounder was fouled?

[RedRef]

Interesting part here is this was a D1 game. I've never understood why there isn't a monitor available at all games at this school. The school has 5-10 tv games each year and monitors are available for those.

Also, there's a D3 conference close by that is putting in monitors for this season.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

That still may not matter. Even if the offense was the last to touch the ball, the goal still shouldn't count.

By rule touching a ball during rebounding action is not the same as a tap which we know is treated as the same as a try for goal in all cases other than the 3/10 of a second situation.

If the covering official didn't consider the offensive player's touching to be a tap (attempt to score), then the ball would still become dead when time expired.

If the ball is above the rim and just inches outside the cylinder when an offensive player touches the ball such that it goes back towards the basket, I'm going to consider that a tap without exception. 2 point if it goes in.

[SeanFitzRef]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
By rule touching a ball during rebounding action is not the same as a tap which we know is treated as the same as a try for goal in all cases other than the 3/10 of a second situation.

If the covering official didn't consider the offensive player's touching to be a tap (attempt to score), then the ball would still become dead when time expired.

Nevada, this would be a tough sell, because I have seen, as I'm sure you have, several plays where a player is going up simply to retrieve an offensive rebound, and accidently knocks the ball into the basket. Everyone in the gym can see the player wasn't actually trying to shoot/tip/tap the ball in, but it does go in and the basket counts. Shouldn't matter if it is the first play of the game or the last.

JR,

Although I understand the rule references, this would mean that there is no possibility that the defense can score an "own goal", and there are provisions made for that in the rules. Rule 5.2.3 states "... if a player scores a field goal in the opponent's basket, it is not credited to a player, but it is indicated as a footnote." This would state to me that there IS the possibility for Team B to 'score' a basket while going for a defensive rebound. In the situation described above, this would be a made basket for team A as the player from B was "trying" to secure the rebound, but never actually had control. The ball never hit the floor or any other object to cause the ball to be dead before it passed thru the cylinder. Therefore, count two points for team A.

[Edited by SeanFitzRef on Nov 16th, 2005 at 04:31 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
[/B]

Although I understand the rule references, this would mean that there is no possibility that the defense can score an "own goal", and there are provisions made for that in the rules. Rule 5.2.3 states "... if a player scores a field goal in the opponent's basket, it is not credited to a player, but it is indicated as a footnote." This would state to me that there IS the possibility for Team B to 'score' a basket while going for a defensive rebound. In the situation described above, this would be a made basket for team A as the player from B was "trying" to secure the rebound, but never actually had control. >The ball never hit the floor or any other object to cause the ball to be dead before it passed thru the cylinder. Therefore, count two points for team A.

[/B][/QUOTE]Nope, the rules references I gave don't tell you that you can't score an "own goal". They do tell you that you can't score an "own goal" with a dead ball though. Big difference. The case play that you are referring to isn't applicable because in that case play the ball remained live until it went through the basket. Apples and oranges iow.

In the play we're talking about, the ball became dead before it passed through the basket (not cylinder) because (1) time expired for the quarter as per R6-7-6 and (2) it wasn't a try as defined in R4-41-2 and therefore wasn't covered under EXCEPTION a of R6-7-6. That's why you don't count 2 points for A.