Basketball Traveling Rules/Picking up your dribble

[APG]

Let's clear up a few things:

Steps aren't important when determining travelling under NFHS (high school) and NCAA rules. It's about establishing the pivot foot. Steps are only important under NBA rules. Also know that there are plays under NBA rules that are completely legal, but are not legal under NCAA/high school rules.

Also know that you can't travel unless you're holding the ball.

As for your last situation. I'm assuming you're trying to say that a player ends his dribble and gathers the ball while a foot is on the floor (we'll say the left foot)? If so, what can happen next depends on what rule set you're using:

NBA:

A player is allowed two steps after he has gathered the ball. The first step occurs after a player steps after he has ended his dribble. In this scenario:

1.) A1 may step with the right foot (step one), then step with the left foot (step two). In this case, the right foot would be the pivot foot.

2.) A1 may step with the right foot (step one), then jump off of that foot and land simultaneously with both feet (step two). A1 would not be able to pivot in this situation.

3.) A1 may jump off the left foot (the foot that was on the floor when the player ended his dribble) and land on both feet simultaneously (this is considered step one). Afterward, he may pivot with either foot.

Now let's take a look under NCAA and high school rules:

1.) A1 may step with his right foot. In this scenario, the left foot will be the pivot foot.

2.) A1 may jump off the left foot (the foot in which the player ended his dribble on, and land on both feet simultaneously. He may not pivot in this case.

[S8on]

I apologize for my poor choice of wording. I am sorry if this is completely off, but I hope to better understand this. (I read your responses and am still a bit confused)

according to NCAA rules

Art. 2. A player who catches the ball (I'm assuming this means pick up the dribble) while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:

Let's say you take your last dribble and the ball hits the floor at the same moment as you take a step. (you are still dribbling the ball as you take that step). As the ball rises up, both your feet will be momentarily airborne and are off the playing court THEN you pick up/end your dribble while airborne.

a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;

I'm assuming this is a jump stop. Left footstep same time as right hand dribble, you pick up your dribble as you are in the air and land on both feet. Now either foot can be the pivot.

2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;

I'm assuming this would be a spin move, or "windmill crossover" described. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and you step with your right foot (established pivot foot) then jump off your left foot and shoot.

3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.

Now apply the same situation as before with same last dribble/last step. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and land on one foot. Then you jump again and land on both feet. Would this be legal?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by S8on

Now apply the same situation as before with same last dribble/last step. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and land on one foot. Then you jump again and land on both feet. Would this be legal?

The official must determine if one foot is on the floor or if neither foot is on the floor. If neither foot is on the floor, then the move you describe is legal.

This is ALSO (along with your example 1) defined as a "jump stop" in NCAA rules. Many of the other terms you use are "fan speak" or "coach speak" and have no specific meaning withing the rules or to officials.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by S8on

I apologize for my poor choice of wording. I am sorry if this is completely off, but I hope to better understand this. (I read your responses and am still a bit confused)

according to NCAA rules

Art. 2. A player who catches the ball (I'm assuming this means pick up the dribble) while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:

Let's say you take your last dribble and the ball hits the floor at the same moment as you take a step. (you are still dribbling the ball as you take that step). As the ball rises up, both your feet will be momentarily airborne and are off the playing court THEN you pick up/end your dribble while airborne.

a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;

I'm assuming this is a jump stop. Left footstep same time as right hand dribble, you pick up your dribble as you are in the air and land on both feet. Now either foot can be the pivot.

2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;

I'm assuming this would be a spin move, or "windmill crossover" described. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and you step with your right foot (established pivot foot) then jump off your left foot and shoot.

3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.

Now apply the same situation as before with same last dribble/last step. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and land on one foot. Then you jump again and land on both feet. Would this be legal?

These are the rules that describe the two types of "jump stops." You can't use them with regards to other situations where stepping with the pivot foot results in traveling.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by S8on

As the ball rises up, both your feet will be momentarily airborne and are off the playing court THEN you pick up/end your dribble while airborne.[/FONT][/I]

Others will not agree with this assessment.

How often does the above actually happen?

NOT VERY

But, err on the side of caution making this call. If you can imagine that this is what happened, play on.

[S8on]

woeigoweihg

How about for the sake of even more simplicity I just ask if either of the two moves performed in the videos of the original post are legal and would they both be somewhat considered jump stops?

[potato]

Can I interpret that you are saying is:

NCAA:
The moment your hand comes in contact (with no further dribble) with the ball determines when the pivot foot has established, not when the player actually hold the ball (ball comes to rest on hand).

NBA:
The moment the ball comes to rest is the moment the dribble ends, so gathering doesn't count as dribbling ended. But in this case there is a loophole where players can take 3-4 steps or even more towards the basket without dribbling, i.e hand in contact with ball + gather for 2 steps then hold the ball and take another pivot/non-pivot step.


so under these scanario it would be a travel for NCAA and legal in NBA:

Originally Posted by APG

Let's clear up a few things:
NBA:

A player is allowed two steps after he has gathered the ball. The first step occurs after a player steps after he has ended his dribble. In this scenario:

1.) A1 may step with the right foot (step one), then step with the left foot (step two). In this case, the right foot would be the pivot foot.

2.) A1 may step with the right foot (step one), then jump off of that foot and land simultaneously with both feet (step two). A1 would not be able to pivot in this situation.

3.) A1 may jump off the left foot (the foot that was on the floor when the player ended his dribble) and land on both feet simultaneously (this is considered step one). Afterward, he may pivot with either foot.

Now let's take a look under NCAA and high school rules:

1.) A1 may step with his right foot. In this scenario, the left foot will be the pivot foot.

2.) A1 may jump off the left foot (the foot in which the player ended his dribble on, and land on both feet simultaneously. He may not pivot in this case.

[APG]

Honestly, I have no idea what you're saying there potato. When the ball is gathered means the dribble has ended or when a player has caught the ball...typically (but not always) when two hands are on the ball.

Regardless of rule set, determining the pivot foot begins when the dribble has ended/ball is caught (or gathered). Depending on if a foot is on floor, both feet on the floor, or both feet are in the air when the ball is caught/gathered/dribble has ended will determine what the player will next be able to do.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by APG

Honestly, I have no idea what you're saying there potato.

It's the same thing he's posted twice before.

Of course, that might not help, because I really didn't understand it then, either. I think he's looking for a black and white answer to a judgment area.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

Can I interpret that you are saying is:

NCAA:
The moment your hand comes in contact (with no further dribble) with the ball determines when the pivot foot has established, not when the player actually hold the ball (ball comes to rest on hand).
....

You keep asking when the dribble ended and we keep telling you it's a judgment call by the official. When are you going to understand that?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by potato

Can I interpret that you are saying is:

NCAA:
The moment your hand comes in contact (with no further dribble) with the ball determines when the pivot foot has established, not when the player actually hold the ball (ball comes to rest on hand)...

No, this is not what he's saying. Not at all. The pivot foot cannot be established until a player is holding the ball. This can happen with one or both hands (or a combination such as a hand and a hip, for example), but merely having a hand touch the ball does not constitute holding the ball. How do we define "holding" verses just "touching" the ball?

As bob says, sometimes you just have to officiate.

[potato]

Meaning in NBA you don't establish pivot foot when you pick up the ball but only the step taken after you pick up the ball you establish a pivot?

While in NCAA you establish pivot foot when you hold the ball?

Still isn't it possible to be running 3, 4 or even 5 steps straight towards the basket (with hands on the ball) after a dribble without bouncing the ball again? For example A is dribbling, after the ball bounces he touches the ball with his hand (but not gathered) and runs 2 steps, then gathers & establish pivot on his 3rd step and take another 4th step with his non pivot foot so 4 steps straight to basket? Because officials determine the dribble ended only when the player gathers the ball and allow another pivot/non pivot foot steps. However in games players usually get called for traveling because simply "he took too many steps" while it's legal under the rules.

I would like to see a video where such scenario happen but it's hard to search a good example.

Originally Posted by Adam

No, this is not what he's saying. Not at all. The pivot foot cannot be established until a player is holding the ball. This can happen with one or both hands (or a combination such as a hand and a hip, for example), but merely having a hand touch the ball does not constitute holding the ball. How do we define "holding" verses just "touching" the ball?

As bob says, sometimes you just have to officiate.

[APG]

Something has to be getting lost in translation here....it's not really as hard as you're making it out to be.

It does not matter what the rule set it. A pivot foot can not be established unless you're holding the ball. Depending on when you end the dribble/gather the ball and the subsequent actions afterward will determine which foot is the pivot foot or if the player even has a pivot foot. But fundamentally, you can not establish a pivot foot until you're holding the ball.

As to your scenario, if a player isn't holding the ball, or the ball doesn't come to rest in the player's hand (aka the player doesn't palm the ball), then the player can take as many steps has he wants.

And no, a player is called for travelling for moving their pivot foot in excess of certain limits...not because he took too many steps (unless you're working in the NBA and even with that, that's still moving the pivot foot in excess of what is allowed). It's not as you describe because theoretically, a player could take as many steps as they want as long as they aren't' holding the ball or commit a dribbling violation.

[potato]

So it is allowed for a player to dribble just once, after the ball bounces, have his hand in contact with the ball for control, but not gathering/palming/holding, run as many steps as fast as he can, then Without re-bouncing the ball on the floor again for another dribble, straight away gather/hold the ball to establish a pivot foot and take another step on his non pivot foot and take off yes?

So if the player is fast enough he can do jab steps left right left right to confuse the defender with his hand in control of the ball to throw off the defender and immediately holds the ball for another 1-2 step without even doing another dribble. Wish there's a video showing this scenario to make it easier to understand. But in short the player can just run 5-6 steps straight to the basket from far out the 3point line without having to dribble after his 1st bounce from way outside the 3 point line. Something like American Football but with one hand and not grabbing the ball.

Originally Posted by APG

Something has to be getting lost in translation here....it's not really as hard as you're making it out to be.

[APG]

If a player is not holding the ball, and doesn't commit any dribbling violations in the process, he can take as many steps as he wants.