Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game ...

[JRutledge]

God forbid, do not tell a player they cannot wear them. They might get confused and think that means they cannot wear them at the dance after school or on the way home. After all what we say is teaching the players the rules.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

God forbid, do not tell a player they cannot wear them. They might get confused and think that means they cannot wear them at the dance after school or on the way home. After all what we say is teaching the players the rules.

Peace

One gets the impression you're being intentionally obtuse, Jeff.

Either that or you've done a remarkable job of not understanding anyone's actual point considering how much time you've devoted to this thread.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

One gets the impression you're being intentionally obtuse, Jeff.

Either that or you've done a remarkable job of not understanding anyone's actual point considering how much time you've devoted to this thread.

I think that is is normal state of being...given the number of times he insists on doing his own thing contrary to what the rules books say.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

One gets the impression you're being intentionally obtuse, Jeff.

Either that or you've done a remarkable job of not understanding anyone's actual point considering how much time you've devoted to this thread.

No, I just find this (as I do other things) rather silly that someone is that worried about what people do or say in this or similar situations. I put this on the scale of using the proper signal for a PC foul and someone really being upset that someone does not go through the specified steps as listed in the rulebook or Official's Manual (if used). And it is not about understanding, is is about disagreement. The point can be made over and over and that is not going to change how I feel about that point (as I do not expect to change anyone's mind as to what they do). It makes little difference to me if someone does something different or does not use a term, but to act like everyone's reaction to this phrase is the same is also silly to me, when there has been no concrete example of how someone really felt they could not move. It seems to me Billy at least is spending a lot of time trying to lecture me as to why what he feels is important. Honestly we can move on at this point, and like him I have been doing this for awhile too. I have an equal right to my opinion as what I do obviously works for me.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No, I just find this (as I do other things) rather silly that someone is that worried about what people do or say in this or similar situations. I put this on the scale of using the proper signal for a PC foul and someone really being upset that someone does not go through the specified steps as listed in the rulebook or Official's Manual (if used).

Not the same at all...not standard and not correct are completely different. Yes, it may not a matter all the time or even much of the time.

One misinforms, the other is just different. It certainly isn't as bad as letting a player take 3-4 steps after they end a dribble, however.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And it is not about understanding, is is about disagreement. The point can be made over and over and that is not going to change how I feel about that point (as I do not expect to change anyone's mind as to what they do).

That much we get. You're a lost cause. You'll do what you want even if it isn't correct and causes problems for others because you don't want to change. Fine. Someday, you'll have a situation where something happens in a game that you have to deal with because other officials don't do it right. Of course, you'll blame them. Just remember you are one of them.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It makes little difference to me if someone does something different or does not use a term, but to act like everyone's reaction to this phrase is the same is also silly to me, when there has been no concrete example of how someone really felt they could not move.

Ask the coach I T'd for insisting the player on the other team couldn't move.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It seems to me Billy at least is spending a lot of time trying to lecture me as to why what he feels is important. Honestly we can move on at this point, and like him I have been doing this for awhile too. I have an equal right to my opinion as what I do obviously works for me.

Peace

Just because it works for you doesn't mean its right.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not the same at all...not standard and not correct are completely different. Yes, it may not a matter all the time or even much of the time.

One misinforms, the other is just different. It certainly isn't as bad as letting a player take 3-4 steps after they end a dribble, however.

What does steps have to do with this rule? And if we are counting steps now, why do coaches often use, "He cannot take one and a half step....." when describing traveling? Have you ever called a travel and talked about "steps" before? They obviously got that from some place and it was not necessarily from an official.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That much we get. You're a lost cause. You'll do what you want even if it isn't correct and causes problems for others because you don't want to change. Fine. Someday, you'll have a situation where something happens in a game that you have to deal with because other officials don't do it right. Of course, you'll blame them. Just remember you are one of them.

Ask the coach I T'd for insisting the player on the other team couldn't move.

If you want me to simply agree with you, then yes I am a lost cause. Once again, I have never had an adverse situation to saying "Don't move" to a player. I have never T'd anyone for saying that. I have had to T someone because they felt they could take the ball out anywhere along the end line and expected me to give the ball to them where they want to (go to the other side of the lane). But that is something that happened almost 10 years ago and has not been an issue since. I do not base my officiating philosophies off of one incident that is not happening all around me in some capacity. And other than this site I have never had this conversation and do not see myself having it anytime soon with the people I work with or around. And the situation I have described, I have never heard of a person complain of having a similar communication break down that I once upon a time.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Just because it works for you doesn't mean its right.

Right and wrong is still subjective. It always has been and always will be. If it was not the case everyone would believe in the same God and practice their religion (within the same religion mind you) the exact same way. So why do we think this issue is any different?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When there has been no concrete examples of how someone really felt they could not move.

Want concrete examples? Alright. Let's count them.

One.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I had to T up a coach this past year because he wouldn't stop complaining to my partner, who, as the administering official, let a player "move" on a designated spot throwin. The coach kept saying, "But he can't move". My partner tried, and I tried, to explain the movement limitations on a designated spot throwin, but he wouldn't accept any of that, he just kept saying, "But he can't move". Eventually, I had to tell him to, "Sit down".

Two.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've T'd a coach over an opponent who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". Where did he get that idea? From officials who tell the players and coaches "don't move". By saying "don't move" you have confused them, not informed them.

Three.

Originally Posted by JeffM

Player asks me to back the defender up to give him three feet. I told him no, but that he can back up as far as he would like. He points to a spot three feet behind him and asks if that is ok. I told him yes and he could back up all the way to the wall if he would like. The idea seemed foreign to him. I think very few players understand this rule. Otherwise, they would back up more frequently to have a clear passing lane.

[Adam]

4. I've T'd a coach (lower level game) for arguing about a thrower who "traveled."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Want concrete examples? Alright. Let's count them.

One.



Two.



Three.

With all due respect, anecdotal situations are not concrete evidence. I have had no adverse situations to what I have said and you have assumed that they are taking this comment so literally. And I have never heard an official, clinician or state person tell me to stop or not to say what you suggested. Those things would mean more to me then some people I have never met or never interacted with other than this site. Sorry, concrete would mean more if there was a directive from the National Federation or the IHSA (in my case). People do not even agree with points people lay out in Referee Magazine which is a national publication and we have to agree with you because you are going to make some list and publish it to your local group?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

With all due respect, anecdotal situations are not concrete evidence.

But, you didn't ask for concrete evidence, you asked for concrete examples. I gave you three concrete examples. Want more?

Originally Posted by Adam

I've T'd a coach (lower level game) for arguing about a thrower who "traveled."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But, you didn't ask for concrete evidence, you asked for concrete examples. I gave you three concrete examples. Want more?

Concrete examples is more than, "I think they believe this based off of what we say" rather then there are multiple situations that have actually happened that have cause great confusion based on a two word phrase, when you are telling them what is the opposite of what they think they could do. If they ask you "Can I move?" what do you think the opposite of that means to them?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If there was a directive from the National Federation or the IHSA.

Originally Posted by Rob1968

NFHS Officials Manual, 2.2 PUTTING THE BALL IN PLAY 2.2.2 C End Line 5. states ; "When the clock is stopped, use the proper verbal and visual signal to indicate whether a spot throw-in or running the end line privileges are in effect." - Signal 26 = Spot Throw-in, Signal 23 = Run End Line.

Not a great citation, it begs the question, what's the proper verbal signal?

We do get some proper verbiage from IAABO, but there are only about ten thousand IAABO members out there, and they're not in all fifty states, they're only in thirty-eight states.

IAABO Crew of Two Basketball Officials Manual (Page 38) Throwin E) Throwin Administration 1) Administering official shall visually sweep the floor d) signal type of throwin 1) designated spot (may use verbiage, if so, "designated spot")

JRutledge: What does the IHSA say? How about your own "Chicagoland" mechanics? I know that you guys use your own mechanics. Go anything in writing?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And it is not about understanding, is is about disagreement.

This really explains so much.

[just another ref]

I hear the thread lock rattling.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I hear the thread lock rattling.

Somebody must have lost the key.