Syracuse-Indiana clips(s)

[just another ref]

It is possible to correctly call a travel and never know which foot was the pivot.

Player catches the ball with one or both feet on the floor, does a 360 degree spin and winds up several feet away with both feet on the floor again prior to releasing a shot. This is a travel, whether I actually saw his feet move or not. If you want to put it that way, the call was (correctly) made "because it looked funny."

This, in my opinion, is considerably better than missing the call, for whatever reason.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is possible to correctly call a travel and never know which foot was the pivot. Player catches the ball with one or both feet on the floor, does a 360 degree spin and winds up several feet away with both feet on the floor again prior to releasing a shot.

The infamous two pivot feet travel violation. Seldom seen. Seldom called. Seldom photographed. A very rare sighting indeed.

[Johnny Ringo]

Lets talk about spin moves where they player ends a dribble. Almost every case is a travel, but these are rarely called.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Lets talk about spin moves where they player ends a dribble. Almost every case is a travel, but these are rarely called.

I think that's overstating it a bit.

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by Adam

I think that's overstating it a bit.

You might be shocked if you looked spin moves where the player ends a dribble and then attempts a try. There are four of us officials where the running game is to find one that is NOT ... and it is hard.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

You might be shocked if you looked spin moves where the player ends a dribble and then attempts a try. There are four of us officials where the running game is to find one that is NOT ... and it is hard.

+1 See play # 2 Michigan St.- Duke clips

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by just another ref

+1 See play # 2 Michigan St.- Duke clips

EXACTLY! Play #2 on that thread is what I am talking about. If you look at almost EVERY spin move you will see this action with the pivot foot. It's really easy to see, especially when you prepare yourself by watching these types of plays over and over again.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

You might be shocked if you looked spin moves where the player ends a dribble and then attempts a try. There are four of us officials where the running game is to find one that is NOT ... and it is hard.

It is overstated because all spin moves are not travels. Yes are there spin moves that are illegal, but certainly not all of them or even most of them. So Adam was correct in his response.

Peace

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is overstated because all spin moves are not travels. Yes are there spin moves that are illegal, but certainly not all of them or even most of them. So Adam was correct in his response.

Peace

JRut, you did not even think Play #1 in this thread was a travel.

Most are violations. In MOST the player ends dribble/gathers ball with a pivot down that is picked up and returned to the floor before the TRY is released.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

You might be shocked if you looked spin moves where the player ends a dribble and then attempts a try. There are four of us officials where the running game is to find one that is NOT ... and it is hard.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is overstated because all spin moves are not travels. Yes are there spin moves that are illegal, but certainly not all of them or even most of them. So Adam was correct in his response.

Peace

Exactly. He said "almost all" of them are travels. That's overstating. Even saying "most" of them is debatable, at best. I'm good with my assessment of his hyperbole.

[BayStateRef]

There are a lot of important lessons here for me. Judgment does not just "happen." It comes from a lot of experience, a lot of plays and a willingness to always learn. For those who judged this a travel in real time, the video affirmed that call. Just because it is close is irrelevant. It was a travel and we need to learn the judgment to call it that way every time.

For those who thought it was not a travel, the video proved you wrong. That is another lesson. Video review helps a lot. Get videos. Break them down. Be tough on yourself. For most of my high school games, there is no video. But at some gyms, the local cable stations do a major production...with multiple cameras and their own replays. These videos are excellent.

I had a late season game this year where each coach (and a lot of fans) did not agree with calls. One was a travel. The player lifted her pivot foot before she started her dribble. The video confirmed that my call was correct. I shared it with other officials...and every one said they saw the same thing on the video. But I assure you not every one would have made the call in the game. It was close...but that is no excuse to be wrong.

The other call was 5-seconds closely guarded...with about a minute left in a 1-point game. The video showed it was 6.5 seconds. My count was 6 when I called it....so my count was off by one-half second. I deliberately waited until I got to 6 before making the call. You can rightly question that judgment. The coach couldn't understand how I made that call at "this time of the game." I couldn't understand why his point guard didn't pick up her dribble. The defense was outstanding. I am supposed to ignore that?

Then there was the out of bounds play I got wrong. I did not see a deflection. Everyone else in the gym did. As I watched the video, I kept trying to figure out how I missed it, how I should have moved for a better angle, how I should have noticed the ball change direction (it was slight, but it was clear on the video.)

I am uncomfortable with those who say because it is close, we shouldn't make the call. We are responsible for getting the calls right -- even the close ones. We are expected to see if the foot is on the line or not and rule accordingly. We need to constantly learn how to be better....positioning, recognition, rules knowledge, hustle. They all matter. But so does the recognition that getting a call wrong is not a sin nor a reflection that we are bad officials.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

For those who thought it was not a travel, the video proved you wrong. That is another lesson. Video review helps a lot. Get videos. Break them down. Be tough on yourself. For most of my high school games, there is no video. But at some gyms, the local cable stations do a major production...with multiple cameras and their own replays. These videos are excellent..

The video did not prove anyone wrong because these are always judgment calls. Some people want to suggest ball control took place at different times than others and that is always going to be the case and will never change.

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

I am uncomfortable with those who say because it is close, we shouldn't make the call. We are responsible for getting the calls right -- even the close ones. We are expected to see if the foot is on the line or not and rule accordingly. We need to constantly learn how to be better....positioning, recognition, rules knowledge, hustle. They all matter. But so does the recognition that getting a call wrong is not a sin nor a reflection that we are bad officials.

That is not what anybody said. What people actually said is it would be difficult to catch that much detail in real time and there are those that could not describe what happen in real time when they saw the play live. You do not use standards that have nothing to do with the rule to make your case. Because if you had to describe this to a coach after you called a travel, I hope you can tell them more than steps or how far they moved when they are 6'6" and can make normal running strides rather lengthy. And if someone said the term "over the back" or "reaching" to describe an "obvious" foul, I would have the same questions if we were looking at a close play. If you cannot even use rulebook language to describe what took place and basically default to some standard, then when something is close I do not have to accept your viewpoint in these kinds of cases.

The overall problem I have is really not with this play, it is that we could show any play and people here (many that commented on how obvious this was) would find the travel every single time. It would be a verticality play and they say someone traveled. It could be a intentional foul call on video, and they see the travel. I have said consistently that traveling is the most inconsistently applied rule in the entire game of basketball and sometimes the hardiest to see. That is not going to change because people feel one way about this particular play.

Peace