Syracuse-Indiana clips(s)

[4-40]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If that isn't the end of a dribble, what is? Left foot on the floor. He is going to take three steps, right, left, right.

Clearly a travel in a still shot, but he only takes two steps (right, left). However, the second step is the pivot foot returning to the floor. To say this is clearly a travel at real-speed is a farce, in my opinion. It looked funny, but strange isn't necessarily illegal. I have no problems without a whistle on this play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by 4-40

Clearly a travel in a still shot, but he only takes two steps (right, left). However, the second step is the pivot foot returning to the floor. To say this is clearly a travel at real-speed is a farce, in my opinion. It looked funny, but strange isn't necessarily illegal. I have no problems without a whistle on this play.

It is fine to have no whistle on this play...I can accept that as too close to call live. But, it IS a travel and not being able to see it live doesn't ever change what it was.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It is fine to have no whistle on this play...I can accept that as too close to call live. But, it IS a travel and not being able to see it live doesn't ever change what it was.

It is a travel in your judgment, do not speak for the rest of us or claim that this has to have a call. We do not officiating in still photos and honestly I do not see a foot clearly on the floor and I do not see clear possession. It is a still photo, it is not how we call the game.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Originally Posted by JRutledge

honestly I do not see a foot clearly on the floor and I do not see clear possession.
Peace

Really? I know we don't deal in still photos, all I'm saying is I saw it in real time

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is a travel in your judgment, do not speak for the rest of us or claim that this has to have a call. We do not officiating in still photos and honestly I do not see a foot clearly on the floor and I do not see clear possession. It is a still photo, it is not how we call the game.

Peace

We get it. You don't want to call travels. That's OK. You've clearly established that you will look for every reason not to call a travel, even ignoring clear facts.

Yes, it often takes judgement at full speed to make decisions on plays like this and that judgement can lead to no travel call. However, what takes judgement at full speed can sometimes be determined objectively in slow-motion and the correct ruling might disagree with what could be confidently determined at full speed.

It really isn't judgement anymore when the video and still frame evidence show everything you need to see to determine if it is or isn't a travel. At live speed, I was unsure on this one and would have not called a travel.

However, the video and the still clearly show that his left foot was on the floor (to disagree with that with the given evidence is simply preposterous) while the ball was at rest in his hand. He did not put the ball down for another dribble and didn't fumble/muff it. If, at that point, he hasn't caught it (holding it), what, by definition, is he doing with it???. And once it is caught/at rest, as it is in this play, the foot on the floor is, by definition (not judgement) the pivot.

Again, it is not unreasonable that these sorts of plays might not be caught at live speed, but it is just silly to keep claiming that these sorts plays are not travels just because they are hard to see at full speed. They're just missed....and understandably missed....but still travels.

[JRutledge]

Cameron,

I call probably more travels than anyone on this site. I have seen myself on tape multiple times and call more travels than my partners or identify the obvious ones in dual coverage areas. So no you would be wrong about what I think about calling travels. I believe I even shared a situation this post season where I was the only one out of the three of my crew in a playoff game that called the same move a travel on a big man and I got crap for it. And I looked at the plays on tape and saw every one again as I did in the game. I just identify the pivot foot when I do and watch what they do with that foot and do not guess what I "think" happened.

And yes it is still a judgment, because we do not have all angles of this play. We have a still where it appears the player has both hands on the ball when it was stated earlier he had complete control before that. So yes these are still judgment calls. Maybe to you it is not because you officiate plays with pictures, but it would still be a judgment with multiple angles as to when a player has the ball in their hands or has ended their dribble.

It is silly to say that it is "obvious" when the people that said so could not tell us for the most part why by rule it was a travel when they first saw the play. Again, we call the game in live action, not by pictures and slowed down action. And we also get one shot to make that determination, not several shots at the bite of the apple to make sure you got it correct.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Cameron,

I call probably more travels than anyone on this site. I have seen myself on tape multiple times and call more travels than my partners or identify the obvious ones in dual coverage areas. So no you would be wrong about what I think about calling travels. I believe I even shared a situation this post season where I was the only one out of the three of my crew in a playoff game that called the same move a travel on a big man and I got crap for it. And I looked at the plays on tape and saw every one again as I did in the game. I just identify the pivot foot when I do and watch what they do with that foot and do not guess what I "think" happened.

And yes it is still a judgment, because we do not have all angles of this play. We have a still where it appears the player has both hands on the ball when it was stated earlier he had complete control before that. So yes these are still judgment calls. Maybe to you it is not because you officiate plays with pictures, but it would still be a judgment with multiple angles as to when a player has the ball in their hands or has ended their dribble.

It is silly to say that it is "obvious" when the people that said so could not tell us for the most part why by rule it was a travel when they first saw the play. Again, we call the game in live action, not by pictures and slowed down action. And we also get one shot to make that determination, not several shots at the bite of the apple to make sure you got it correct.

Peace

You're talking to me. I didn't need the video. I saw it as a travel while watching the game. Yes I know the reason it was a travel, the pivot foot left the floor and returned before passing or shooting, after he stopped his dribble. In the still, it doesn't appear that the player has both hands on the ball with his left foot on the floor. It is a fact, and for you to continue to deny that is simply a farce.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

You're talking to me. I didn't need the video. I saw it as a travel while watching the game. Yes I know the reason it was a travel, the pivot foot left the floor and returned before passing or shooting, after he stopped his dribble. In the still, it doesn't appear that the player has both hands on the ball with his left foot on the floor. It is a fact, and for you to continue to deny that is simply a farce.

I am glad you did not need the video, I am glad you call every possible travel, but this misses the point I am making. I do not feel it was obvious. And if you are telling me that you and others would see the toes of a ball handler on the floor the very moment there was contact with the ball that ended the dribble, more power to you. I just do not believe you that you would get that or that you would not guess on many of these types of plays. And I also do not think that it was missed on purpose as if there is some larger conspiracy to not call travels. I see a lot of travels called at this level. Watch the Michigan-Kansas game there were a lot of travels called in that game. I do think some officials are better at getting them as others. But do not tell me I have to agree with you on a still photo. I never think that is a good way to determine something and have said that for years on this site, long before you got here. That is not going to change. And when I teach these things, I keep reminding officials that we do not get the opportunity to watch the video in several slow motion ways and different angles. I guess I just hate the self-righteous attitude becuase you think is obvious that everyone else feels the same way. And I really find that funny for those that do not work that level or any college ball on that level. Heck even certain HS players these are tough plays.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I thought play one was a travel when I saw it live. In my humble opinion the replay confirms it for me. He picks the ball up with his left foot on the floor. steps with right, steps with left and doesn't shoot or pass before it hits again.

Originally Posted by 4-40

Clearly a travel in a still shot, but he only takes two steps (right, left). However, the second step is the pivot foot returning to the floor. To say this is clearly a travel at real-speed is a farce, in my opinion. It looked funny, but strange isn't necessarily illegal. I have no problems without a whistle on this play.

As you can see from my first post I thought it was a travel when I was watching the game live. He also takes three steps. He takes another step after his left foot hits the floor and jumps off his right foot to shoot.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

As you can see from my first post I thought it was a travel when I was watching the game live. He also takes three steps. He takes another step after his left foot hits the floor and jumps off his right foot to shoot.

And where is steps in the rulebook again? That is about as bad as saying how far he traveled on the floor (pun intended).

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And where is steps in the rulebook again? That is about as bad as saying how far he traveled on the floor (pun intended).

Peace

I know steps isn't in the rule book. Just my way of saying lifting the pivot foot and returning to the floor without shooting or passing. I will try to work on that.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by 4-40

Clearly a travel in a still shot, but he only takes two steps (right, left). However, the second step is the pivot foot returning to the floor. To say this is clearly a travel at real-speed is a farce, in my opinion. It looked funny, but strange isn't necessarily illegal. I have no problems without a whistle on this play.

You should stop mentioning the number of steps. It's meaningless to the rule and just makes you sound like a coach or fan, not like an official.