refuses to play with 5

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Goodness. People are being intentionally obtuse today. First I have someone tell me that no where in the rules does it say a batter is out when they hit an infield fly - when the rule they were talking about simply says, "The batter is out when they hit an infield fly."

Now you tell me fighting cannot be a live ball act, when 4-18 says, quite plainly: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.

Someone is certainly being obtuse here...

I will go slowly for you. I never said fighting can not be a live ball act. I did say that if a fight occurs during a live ball, it is not a flagrant technical, but a flagrant personal.For reasons already stated.

[just another ref]

A flagrant personal foul is a personal foul of a violent or savage nature. All personal fouls involve contact. Fighting may or may not involve contact. The contact, if it occurs, is secondary to the violent intent of the act.

The above is my interpretation.

The below is not.

10-3-8 tells us a player shall not be charged with fighting, listing the penalty as two free throws for the offended team plus the ball at the division line.

Where's the gray area here?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A flagrant personal foul is a personal foul of a violent or savage nature. All personal fouls involve contact. Fighting may or may not involve contact. The contact, if it occurs, is secondary to the violent intent of the act.

The above is my interpretation.

The below is not.

10-3-8 tells us a player shall not be charged with fighting, listing the penalty as two free throws for the offended team plus the ball at the division line.

Where's the gray area here?

The summary of penalties at the end of rule 10, section 8, tells us that the penalty for flagrant fouls that are fighting is always two plus the ball at the division line...so of course if it is a flagrant T as in 10-3-8 that would be the penalty...as it would for a flagrant personal for fighting during a live ball.

Anyway...

[maven]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Someone is certainly being obtuse here...

I will go slowly for you. I never said fighting can not be a live ball act. I did say that if a fight occurs during a live ball, it is not a flagrant technical, but a flagrant personal.For reasons already stated.

I was with you at first. But the penalty for ALL of 10-3, including 10-3-8 (fighting) is the penalty for a T, not a flagrant personal foul.

The rules are murky, but the only difference between a flagrant T and a flagrant personal foul is where you put the ball in play. Prolly not worth going to the mat over.

New trivia question: what live-ball, contact foul is a technical foul.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by maven

The rules are murky, but the only difference between a flagrant T and a flagrant personal foul is where you put the ball in play.

There's another key difference and that is who is entitled to shoot the free throws for the offended team. Could make a big difference in a tight game with a 20% FT shooter getting fouled.

[26 Year Gap]

[maven]

Originally Posted by Welpe

There's another key difference and that is who is entitled to shoot the free throws for the offended team. Could make a big difference in a tight game with a 20% FT shooter getting fouled.

Good point.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by maven

Name the one non-contact foul that can be a personal foul.

Originally Posted by maven

What live-ball, contact foul is a technical foul.

I give up.